World of Raids Forums: "Chess Match" - World of Raids

#27 - Jan 2, 09

I don't think chess is a good analogy for WoW PvP. That's not what we're trying to do with it.

In most chess games, split-second timing isn't an issue. At most you have a timer and have to make a decision within a few seconds. A few seconds can be an eternity in an Arena. Speed shouldn't be everything, but it should definitely count. Manual dexterity is almost irrelevant in chess as long as you can pick up the pieces, but in Arena there is certainly an element to using the ability you want at the precise right moment. Arena is not turn based.

Chess games have almost no random elements. Random elements are very much at the heart of an RPG. Now granted RNG sometimes can take on too much prominence, but the rook is never going to miss the pawn.

Chess is usually one on one. The coordination of a team is very much at the heart of our PvP, even in a BG pug situation.

I think when players bristle at my saying we don't want Arena to be chess, they think I am saying that we don't want interesting decisions, bluffing, counter moves, upsets, and all of those things that make chess interesting. That's not really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that we don't want Arenas to be all about exercising pre-memorized moves. It should be more dynamic than that.

We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer. There has to be a place for just killing each other in Arenas. Now there does have to be a place for healing, CC and draining too (and there may not be enough of that right now).

Speaking entirely personally here, I find Arena matches, especially between very highly talented teams to be really exciting, while chess puts me to sleep. I don't download many chess videos.

#96 - Jan 3, 09

Quote:
Immature, and i didn't see anyone ask you what you thought about chess. And secondly are you putting down chess and the people that play it?

Because when arena was more like chess, the way it should be, it was more fun to live for over 10 mins. then die in 2.

I wasn't trying to insult people who like chess. It's just not for me. I am certain there are things I like that make other people scratch their head.

Quote:
Take shaman(Coincidence I swear) for example. The only way they had to stop healers output was a) damage b) 2 second interrupt on a 6 second cooldown that was on and activated their GC as well as being shared by their main slowing ability.

No, this was actually my point. When shamans see the only way to kill a healer to be a stun, silence or mana drain, then they understandably ask for those abilities (and probably MS too). We don't want Arena to be a system where every class has the same tools and just endlessly counter each other. Damage in Arenas needs to be a factor.

Quote:
The aspect of chess-play that people enjoyed in their arena matches is getting your opponent into a position where you can crush them via out-maneuvering them.

I think this is totally valid. Don't interpret what I said to say Arenas should be entirely unlike chess. I just don't think it is a particularly strong metaphor (even though I may have been the one who first invoked it).

Quote:
How do you think all those gladiators and top players got up there? Through coordination, team work and fast reflexes.

I also strongly agree with this. This is where the chess analogy fails IMO, because it typically isn't about coordination, team work and fast reflexes. This (the quote) is exactly what Arena should be in my mind. I think maybe some of the confusion comes from interpreting my comments to mean "And I think we have achieved that right now." I didn't say that. I was talking more about what we think the ideal Arena should be (and I asked in another thread for player opinions too).

Quote:
Using pre-memorized moves is all the arena has been for four seasons. And that's not bad - that's a trademark of skill.

I think it depends on your definition. There is another quote about this below. Deciding when to unleash those moves and when to change your strategy is the dynamic aspect I'm talking about. Invoking "pre-memorized moves" too much makes it sound like the outcome of a match is never in question and it's just who knows the moves better. If the answer to A is always B and B always works flawlessly, then I think you've reduced something complex down into a series of very simple decisions -- and I don't think that is what is really going on.

Quote:
The whole point of a chess analogy is the elimination of random elements, which have no place in a "skill-based environment". Unfortunately, trying to accomplish "RPG Chess" is like adding oil to water and asking it to blend nicely.

This actually may boil things down nicely. We don't want to eliminate random elements. We don't want them to dominate, certainly, but this game gets a lot of its depth from players never being able to be 100% sure what is about to happen. I understand many players want to reduce or eliminate the random elements, especially in PvP. We don't. Planning for what you do when the unexpected happens, having contingency plans, and working around the random elements all require a lot of skill. We aren't computers.

Quote:
Ghostcrawlers comment was fine but we are just all so emotional right now. General strategies are preplanned yes - but when the mage is going to cs/poly morph (and how you are trying to trick them) is dynamic and what he is referring too.

Yes.

#98 - Jan 3, 09

Quote:
So if healers can be bursted down by a single player, without them using CC, why should a healer enter the arena? What value do they provide?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said "single player." What I meant was we don't want to ever get into a situation where healers are immortal. Some players would argue that we have been at that place in previous seasons -- it might not be a prevalent opinion on a healing forum of course. :)

#108 - Jan 3, 09

Quote:
Then you need to eliminate the random elements that are so gamebreaking.

Totally agree. Where we differ is on what is gamebreaking. The DnD glyph that someone else mentioned is something that gets brought up a lot and is something we're looking at.

#111 - Jan 3, 09

Quote:
OK, so you want to trivialize our primary ability to heal in Arena by making Burst king again.

Sigh. I'm not sure there is anything more I can say on this topic. I think most of you understand what it is I am trying to say. I'll continue to read these posts, but I don't think my responses are actually accomplishing anything.

#124 - Jan 3, 09

Quote:
I think I understand what you mean GC. And I agree that S4 and S3 was a bit in the other direction as well, where in 2s double dps had a much harder time than healer teams. I too misunderstood your previous quote thinking that one dps should be able to kill a healer without even having to silence, because it really is happening right now.

I am not trying to weasel out of blame. My quote should have been clearer.

Quote:
I think things are way too far in the other direction, and after doing some 3s today, I really do feel worthless in a team as all my team does now is try to peel the enemy off me and I still don't survive longer than 10 seconds.

And I really do doubt resilience will not be enough in the long run, but I guess we'll see.

Understood. We really don't mind getting that feedback. It's only a problem when it gets all foamy at the mouth. I often notice things crossing over when players stop talking about the classes and start talking about Blizzard.

Quote:
Btw, shouldn't you be taking a break from your job? It's a saturday XD Honestly though, thanks for the responses and for trying to explain what your team is trying to accomplish.

I think enough players are upset that it's worth my taking some time to listen to their feedback. I can be as sarcastic as anyone, but I do take the job very seriously. I know the decisions we make affect a lot of people.

Believe me, nobody wishes more than I do that we could turn this ship on a dime. I personally have no problem being a little reckless and making changes right and left. Change is good for the soul my momma used to say. But then in my saner moments, I realize why that would be a dumb thing to do. We owe it to the player base to be very careful with any changes we make. I think it was in another thread where someone said "Ram through a bunch of huge changes during the holiday? What could possibly go wrong?"