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Upcoming Hunter Changes

#1 User is offline   WoRBot Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 03:21 PM

This is pretty big news for Hunters, so we'll go ahead and post it now instead of in the end-of-day recap.

Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)

Hunters of all specs, and particularly Beastmaster, are doing too much damage in PvE.

We tested this a lot internally in beta and knew hunters were high but we hoped other classes would be able to catch up in a way they have as yet been unable to do. We want to be careful not to hurt hunter dps too much in PvP, so we’re taking most of the damage out of Steady Shot and Volley. Beastmaster hunters are in addition losing some of their pet dps. We still want BMs to have the best pets, but pet dps numbers are a little high at the moment. We are also still concerned about hunter survivability in PvP and taking the opportunity to jazz up Deterrence into something that looks and plays a little more interesting.

These are not all of the changes we are working on for hunters, but those changes we feel are ready for testing. We hope to get these changes up on the PTR so players will have a chance to test them out and respond before they go live.

1) Steady Shot – now only gains 10% of attack power as damage (down from 20%).
2) Volley – reduced the damage by about 30% for all ranks. Note that AE damage from many classes is very high right now and we are looking at all of them. Volley in particular had reached the point where some hunters were using it to the exclusion of most other attacks.
3) Readiness – no longer affects the cooldown of Bestial Wrath.
4) Deterrence – has been completely overhauled. It now allows you to deflect 100% of incoming melee or spell damage for 5 seconds, but prevents you from attacking while active. You still must be facing the attacker to deflect the damage (this is a limitation we are trying and might end up removing). 60 sec cooldown.
5) Kill Shot – cooldown reduced to 15 sec (from 35 sec).
6) Kindred Spirits – now only grants 3/6/9/12/15% pet damage.
7) Serpent’s Swiftness – now only grants 2/4/6/8/10% bonus attack speed to pet. (EDIT: Still grants the current bonus to the hunter.)
8) All hunter pet abilities with a cooldown longer than 30 sec have been moved off the global cooldown.
9) Growl— threat generation increased by 20% (same for Voidwalker Torment).
10) Call of the Wild – now benefits only the hunter and his or her pet.
11) Rake and Scorpid Poison – slightly nerfed to bring them into line with other pet abilities.
12) Spirit Strike – reduced the period on the dot so it will work better with Longevity.
Improved Tracking – now benefits damage to all included creature types as long as you are tracking one of them. You don’t have to swap around what you are tracking as much.
13) Aspect of the Wild – now raid-wide.

EDIT: The "only" on Serpent's Swiftness meant 10% pet attack speed instead of 20%. The hunter bonus is unchanged.

More (Source)

I did say these are not all the hunter changes we're working on. Some we haven't quite worked out yet and others (one exciting one in particular concerning ammo) won't be ready until Ulduar or so.

We think MM was too high and BM was way too high. Survival is probably a little low. We are looking at buffing Survival, possibly through Explosive Shot, but we haven't finalized that yet.

The Deterrence change is defintely something we'll need to see in action on the PTR.

I don't want to do a disservice to all the good PvP feedback by attempting to boil it down too much. However, in general a lot of hunters were concerned about being able to do damage as much as they were concerned about being able to survive damage. We don't expect the Deterrence change to solve the former problem obviously. We're still working on that one, but we wanted to go ahead and announce what changes we have now so that you guys can be chewing on them.

Nerfing classes is never fun. It means that our initial tests and estimates didn't play out in the real world, which is a failing on our part, not anything the players did wrong. While buffing is a lot more fun, we think we'd get to crazy land too quickly by trying to make current BM dps the new benchmark. That would mean touching virtually every other class and spec as well as many encounters. While it might produce more positive PR in the short-term, it's a ton more work in the long-term that we would rather spend on new content or other problem areas.

Also, the sky is not falling. We're posting here so we can get feedback. Threats of rerolling or that sort of melodrama aren't really giving us any information we need. I can understand while you might want to vent a little bit, but posts with nothing but QQ aren't helpful. :)

Even more (Source)

There is a time-honored tradition in the WoW community of attacking the messenger when you don't like the message. Some players are always going to take nerfs personally, and I'm not sure there is much we can do about that except make sure we understand their concerns, which I try to do.

The QQ and trolling don't really bother me, though we do try and delete it and ban repeat offenders so they get the message about the kinds of posts we will tolerate here. You don't have to be all sunshine and roses and agree with everything we do. But you have to disagree in a civil manner. If you can't help yourself, my advice is to read and not post.

Our job is to make the game fun, and part of that includes trying to keep it balanced. Sometimes balance requires buffs and sometimes it requires nerfs. Sometimes we need to overhaul mechanics. Rarely if ever will the entire community agree on those changes, and really that's not the goal. Players don't need to be burdened with trying to fix bugs or problems with the game. If however they want to give feedback, we provide these forums, and we're grateful for the feedback we get. The alternative is to just see the changes in the patch notes, sans explanation or opporunity for response. We prefer this way, though it may may feel like a wild ride at times. :)


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#2 User is offline   Bloodyhealer Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 03:25 PM

bah more nerfs ":( now I gotta work to top dmg meters xD
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#3 User is offline   Chrono Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:03 PM

Good.

Hunters were way to OP in PvE :/
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#4 User is offline   Fanglor Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:35 PM

they need to do the same for mages now too.
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#5 User is offline   koenigsegg Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:37 PM

Chrono said:

Good.

Hunters were way to OP in PvE :/


See that as a good thing while it lasts. :) You sound like you cry because you can't top dmg meters?
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#6 User is offline   Utamar Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:41 PM

looks like my BM days are over for PVE, back to MM =/
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#7 User is offline   Hojew Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 04:54 PM

I've never before heard of a class that was declared underpowered, subsequently buffed, found to be buffed too much, then consequently nerfed. Never.

At least when it was warlocks back in vanilla World of Warcraft, it was because of poor class design and many failure spells. With hunters, it's because the majority of people playing the class should not be. Any truly skilled hunter knows he's essentially playing two characters and should only expect to fail in PVP and PVE if he's doing otherwise. Everyone else is going to pound their fists on the ground and cry when their one-button shot rotation macro isn't allowing them to blast ahead on the damage meters.
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#8 User is offline   Communism Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:00 PM

Lifetime hunter here, and honestly im not bothered by these changes at all. As a matter of fact, I like them. The change to the tracking talent, killshot, and deterrence are positive imo. The biggest nerf was readiness not affecting BW, but I think everyone can agree that was OP.
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#9 User is offline   Chrono Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:00 PM

koenigsegg said:

See that as a good thing while it lasts. :) You sound like you cry because you can't top dmg meters?


Actually no, since I'm a tank <.<
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#10 User is offline   Ross Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:42 PM

Hojew said:

I've never before heard of a class that was declared underpowered, subsequently buffed, found to be buffed too much, then consequently nerfed. Never.


Paladin.
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#11 User is offline   Kody Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:30 PM

Chrono said:

Actually no, since I'm a tank <.<


How are you liking Paladin tanking since the expansion? And did you tank in TBC? If so, care to compare the experiences?
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#12 User is offline   starfals Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:42 PM

Fanglor said:

they need to do the same for mages now too.


Indeed mate its about time ... :)
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#13 User is offline   Biteme Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:53 PM

Utamar said:

looks like my BM days are over for PVE, back to MM =/


The nerf to steady shot completely destroys MM hunters in pve. So this will only force all pve hunters to go with a nerfed BM spec anyways.

Pet scaling and damage is why we do our insane pve dps, not steady shot damage. There is really no point in destroying that aspect of our class as well.
I approve of all the other nerfs, it was needed and should tune the stupid and boring BM tree down quite a bit, but the steady nerf is just plain stupid
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#14 User is offline   AK47 Icon

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:09 PM

First balance news. Wonder who will follow after mage.
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#15 User is offline   Amoniak Icon

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:13 AM

Quote

9) Growl— threat generation increased by 20% (same for Voidwalker Torment).


I see a warlock buff!!
Perhaps it can tank a mob with more then 2 dots now without loosing aggro after 10 sec.
Torment should realy scale better with spell power if it even does that now..

About the hunter changes, I think it was more or less a matter of time before this "fix" came along. If it turns out to be to harsh I'm sure they will adjust it so hunters still funktion as good dps'ers.
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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:25 AM

Communism said:

Lifetime hunter here, and honestly im not bothered by these changes at all. As a matter of fact, I like them. The change to the tracking talent, killshot, and deterrence are positive imo. The biggest nerf was readiness not affecting BW, but I think everyone can agree that was OP.


Can't agree more. We're really OP, tho I'm enjoying it while it lasts :P I guess the nerfing is coming earlier than I expected.
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#17 User is offline   bronnum Icon

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 03:54 AM

Guess the 50/21 spec will be history now that Readiness do not affect lol-omg-OP-BW-again...

And btw, thx Blizz for not including us as an aoe-class :)

Btw, I'm really looking forward to see how the new Tracking skill will improve 51/14/5 spec (or similar spec with 5 or 7 in surv tree). Further, will that last point in BM be valuable now that Rake is down?
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#18 User is offline   Chrono Icon

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 03:54 AM

Kody said:

How are you liking Paladin tanking since the expansion? And did you tank in TBC? If so, care to compare the experiences?


I rather like it actually, I never tanked before but when I got lv 80 I realized that being retri wouldn't really give me much instances or raids so it was either go back to holy (which I played for most TBC) or protection. I chose the latter.

I started off with gathering enough Saronite to have the def gear from blacksmithing crafted. This didn't take more than an hour and a half or so to get all the regents. I also started saving up for a Titansteel shield as it gives a lot of defense which helps you reach the defcap faster. With the saronite gear I had around 525 defense and then spent about 3-5 days replacing my gear with heroics gear to achieve 540 def. Once you reach 535+ tanking heroics becomes simple really since you won't get any random crits that surprise the healers.


As for tanking itself, It is not hard at the moment. Consecration and Hammer of Righteous spam solves most aoe situations and the famous "969" rotation works great on bosses. While I don't follow it to 100% I follow the basic with >Keep holy shield up all the time<.
My guild just cleared Naxx25 two days ago, while I didn't MT most bosses I found most of them rather easy from a tank prospective, however, I found naxx overall very entertaining and fun. I didn't play naxx in vanilla so I'm very glad I got the chance to play it in WOTLK. People might argue it is too easy but It is very enjoyable. With exception of Thaddius, whom, at least on my server, tends to cause ridiculous lag.

The TPS that paladins can generate on certain bosses is almost ridiculous, for example:
I generate about 10k TPS while MTing Patchwerk due to 969 rotation in combination with JoL. Since melee basically can stand in the slime with JoL up it is amazing threat for me.
I've also found that It seems like I generate more TPS than our usual MT, who is a warrior, I don't know if it is due to the person playing the warrior or the fact that paladins does generate a ridiculous amount of threat.



So that's some of my unstructured thoughts about WOTLK tanking. I hope I made some sense.
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#19 User is offline   Concerned. Icon

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 04:22 AM

Thats interesting i was prot on my pally since i created him havn't started lvling him in northrend yet but from what you say its gonna be fun being prot again :)
whats the new abilities like (holyslam and holyhammer) gimmicks or you use them in your rotationor for the pull for quick aggro?

To the people saying nerf mages the blue post said they would be nerfing all the aoe'rs not just hunters.

Biteme said:

The nerf to steady shot completely destroys MM hunters in pve. So this will only force all pve hunters to go with a nerfed BM spec anyways.

Pet scaling and damage is why we do our insane pve dps, not steady shot damage. There is really no point in destroying that aspect of our class as well.
I approve of all the other nerfs, it was needed and should tune the stupid and boring BM tree down quite a bit, but the steady nerf is just plain stupid

MM is doing too much dmg too not just BM as said by the blue. Also you sound like a 3 year old throwing a fit "stupid bliz and their stupid patch, stupid dummies!!"

Im liking alot of these changes will be nice not having to constantly change tracking types anymore. The threat on void has been long needed hopefully its enough of a buff will make it actually worth using again.

Im gonna stay BM because i don't play my hunter in a competetive enviroment and i like my Stampysuarus Rex ill miss the OP damage but will still be fun sending big ol red dino to pummel mobs :)
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#20 User is offline   Chrono Icon

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 04:53 AM

Concerned. said:

whats the new abilities like (holyslam and holyhammer) gimmicks or you use them in your rotationor for the pull for quick aggro?


I usually use AS -> Holy shield (before the boss gets to hit me) -> Judgement(Of light) -> SoR -> HotR

Or something along those lines.

I recommend getting Libram of Obstruction as fast as possible when you ding 80 as it is extra damage reduction and threat/dmg from SoR. I spent my emblems on that libram then t7 chest and gloves.
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