[rpnguyen]

koud_biertje said:

Don't they mean VOL'jin and varimathRas? I seriously hope Zul'jin has nothing to do with wotlk

It's Vol'jin. Csulok just confused the two, I'm guessing.

Yea I was wondering when they would finally finish this since when you turn in the quest to Saurfang the Younger you see phasing tech in action, all the npcs disappear and you see a blazing battlefield with Alexstraza and Krasus and you hear tons of screaming. And finally we get this really kickass cutscene. Props to Blizzard. Although, it's kinda weird that Valeera fights on the Alliance side. You'd think she'd be reluctant to fight fellow Blood Elves.

[Junblat]

This is the most EPIC then i have ever seen

I just love that i am horde....and more that i am FORSAKEEEEEEEEEEEEEN

[csulok]

koud_biertje said:

Don't they mean VOL'jin and varimathRas? I seriously hope Zul'jin has nothing to do with wotlk

Thanks, both are indeed typos. Rookie mistakes on my end

Arcano30 said:

does anyone know if there is a similar quest for alliance

Of course, the Alliance questline is very similar. As far as I know that version doesn't start at the courtyard but at the sewers (where the bat flies out of The Undercity) and doesn't end at Varimathras but at Putress. The story is the same. Bolvar dies, Wrynn declares war, Jaina tries to stop you, you go attack and then the big clash with Thrall and the teleports.

[stba]

Mercus said:

My guess would be that those dragons obliterated the bodies with fire, thus preventing anyone from rising as the "new" Forsaken.

indeed, they torch the catapults and the corpses.. maybe watch the whole movie before posting (to RogueJedi86)

[lobotimex]

The Alliance follow-up to this parallels the horde version...

After witnessing the event, the alliance player lands and talks to Alexstrasza, who then asks for you to search the battlefield for Bolvar's Shield and take it to King Varian. The king, enraged by the treachery, begins preparation for war. However, he allows a diplomatic mission to be dispatched to Ogrimmar, led by Jaina and accompanied by the Player. Jaina, who is standing by the throne in stormwind, opens a portal to Ogrimmar.

Arriving in Ogrimmar, the player and Jaina are surrounded by Kor'kiron warriors, but Thrall calls them back. Thrall and Jaina discuss what occurred, and Silvanas explains that she was betrayed by Putress and Varimathas, and that she is no longer in control of the Undercity. Jaina and the player then port back to report to the King, who sees this as an opportunity to purge and retake the Undercity for the alliance. He then orders the players to accompany himself and Jaina outside the sewers of the Undercity where together they will rout out the forsaken and bring Putress to justice. Jaina then makes a port for the player to get to the Undercity.

Outside the Undercity, Alliance Siege tanks and Flying Machines have kept a firm hold on the entrance to the sewer, while elite stormwind guards fight back Abominations and Dreadlords. The king, along with Jaina and the player, start to advance down the sewer, fighting back mobs of undead, forsaken and Dreadlords. Putress then unleashes an Engorged Blight Burrower to take care of the Alliance, but with the help of the Player and Jaina, they destroy it and move into the city.

Upon entering the city, they see the corpse of a large Terrorfiend, along with the corpses of Horde soldiers. The King then vows to right the wrongs of the past, and destroy the horde once they've taken care of Putress. They then start to fight through the Apothecary, and finally locate Putress at the helm of one of his machines. Putress unleashes a small army of failed experiments, which the party of heros fight against, while Putress absorbs dark energy from his machine. After a few moments Putress grows to enormous proportions and attacks the group. The king succeeds to delivering justice, and kills Putress.

At that moment, Thrall yells something in Orcish, which grabs Varian's attention, who then vows to kill Thrall. Jaina protests, and says that she will not take part in this, as Varian speeds away towards the Royal Chamber, with the player in tow. Upon arriving in the Royal Chamber, the King is confronted by Thrall and his escorts, who have just finished off Varamathas. The king then vows to kill Thrall and destroy the horde, and the battle commences.

After a few moments of fighting between the Horde and Alliance, Jaina ports in and does an AoE Frost Nova which freezes everybody. She then says that this isn't the way, and then ports everybody home. The player then ends up in Stormwind, as a frozen block of ice.

[Watcherzero]

I just realised hehe, The Alliance invades using the "secret" back door that leads straight to the throne room, whereas the horde have to go the long, heavily guarded way in through the front gate.

[Nath]

Mercus said:

My guess would be that those dragons obliterated the bodies with fire, thus preventing anyone from rising as the "new" Forsaken.

Still, look at Bolvar's face color changing when he dies. Ladies and Gentlemen, forget Rivendare as I present you:
The new 4th Horseman.














Haha just messing with you Alliance guys. Still, it could be possible that Rivendare was just a placeholder, the risen Bolvar was taken by the Lich King, and the events at the Wrathgate happen before the player enters Naxxramas, storywise (as I read this quest is available at 75)

[Arcano30]

RogueJedi86 said:

Shouldn't the Plague have turned Bolvar into a Scourge or Death Knight or something?
......
............
.................

Oh god

I just realized that Bolvar is probably going to be a boss in Icecrown Citadel. It's such a perfect twist. Varimathras too, so both sides have some personal business there.

wrong he might be a boss in icecrown same as the horde hero. but varimathas not, this new plague is not from the scourge, it actually destroys the scourge
Putress and Varimathras are actually working for someone else my speculation points to the true leader of the burning legion. (AKA sargeras). because of Varimathras last words, it is also impossible that they are with the scourge, they almost kill Arthas :S

[Lafel]

Mercus said:

My guess would be that those dragons obliterated the bodies with fire, thus preventing anyone from rising as the "new" Forsaken. But its just a wild guess more than anything from my side.

i'd admit your theory

[Laibcoms]

csulok said:

retarded might be a strong word indeed, i've rephrased that sentence. but in my defense, i know a lot of fans of the alliance who think alike. for 4 years it was the alliance who was the good guy and now it seems they are the bad guys, it's hard not to blame this on the king.

and yes, it is horde biased because i only got to experience it on the horde side and i hate the alliance

I can't agree more.

Return of the King... WEE, W00T, RAWR, ALLIANCE WILL KICK ARSES, DEATH TO THE HORDE!!!

OOps wait.. the King is selfish, retarded, clouded with Hatred, LIVING IN THE OLD AGE - C'mon, there's no room for Hatred and past memories here anymore... Jaina let her father be killed for the very same reason!!! Jaina should let Wrynn be killed as well.

Wait again, you know who to blame? It's Jaina, if she only took the mantle as the leader of the Alliance, this won't happen in the first place. We don't need an OLDIE leading the Humans. Is the Orc's leader part of the OLDIE characters? No.

So there, the retarded King of Stormwind just started the 4th All-Out and ull-scale Horde vs Alliance War, congratulations.

RogueJedi86 said:

Those Forsaken are under Varimathras working with the Lich King, it's very possible. A great warrior like Bolvar? Definitely would get made into a Death Knight. Varimathras as a boss works too. It'd sure make Icecrown Citadel a lot more interesting than just having a bunch of random no-name never-heard-of-before bosses.

I highly doubt Varimathras is working for the Forsaken, that is the last in the list of possibilities. Varimathras was afraid when the voice said "you have failed me again", I can only say that he was shaking and desperate.

I can assume that the Dreadlords keep returning back to life because someone out there keeps their Cycle of Life 'alive', but once that someone-out-there stops it, they'll dead.

The highest possible candidate here is Sargerras. Sargerras is pretty much alive. The one buried in the tomb in Azeroth is only a fraction of Sargerras, it wasn't Sargerras himself in the first place. Secondly, those remains are known to be missing.

It is very possible that Sargerras (the real one, not the one in Azeroth, which is only a fraction of himself), is already on his way back to Azeroth. If he is, then the Titans are also on their way back to Azeroth. It coincides with the expansions. It is known there will be 5 expansions. We're on the 2nd. It is only appropriate that by the 5th expansion, it's the FINAL WAR.

Watcherzero said:

I always questioned why the horde allowed the forsaken to join them, and all those early quests as horde where you are actually helping them create a new plague to wipe out the living and the rest of the horde doesnt bat an eyelid, ahh well they got their punishment.

But that cinematic was amazing, so much better than the dissapointing WOTLK intro.

You are missing something here. The Forsaken under the leadership of Sylvannas is very different from the Scourge. Look at Sylvannas, she extends her protection to the Blood Elves. Look at the Forsaken NPCs who are not members of the Apothecary, they want to go back as "living".

I Sylvannas, over time, was able to subdue the "Scourge" brain-wash and able to gain complete control of herself. She doesn't desire to make the whole world "undead", she wants Arthas dead, period.

HOWEVER, little did she know, Varimathras and the Apothecary are plotting something. The Apothecary members are against Arthas and all the living. It only shows that they are working for the Burning Legion.

Think about it, if the Burning Legion can not control the Lich King, they will kill him instead right? But Illidan failed. So who's next? Fight the Lich King with his own creations, the Forsaken-Apothecary. Which at the same time, will kill the living.

How deep is the Apothecary treason? Check the quest "Nothing but the Truth", read it, and you'll know that in the WoW Original, it was already hinted that the Apothecary will betray everyone once they reach Northrend. It happened, right there in the WrathGate.

[Jeyl]

Laibcoms said:

Wait again, you know who to blame? It's Jaina, if she only took the mantle as the leader of the Alliance, this won't happen in the first place. We don't need an OLDIE leading the Humans. Is the Orc's leader part of the OLDIE characters? No.

I'm surprised she hasn't joined the Horde to be perfectly honesty. She really doesn't seem to mind how many of her people get killed by their hands. Remember how many of her people were slain by Thrall and Hellscream before they met Medivh? Or what about all those glorious praises that Thrall bestowed upon Grom Hellscream's sacrifice? Does he ever acknowledge or even mention the fact that it was with Jaina's aid that brought him back to Sanity? I don't think so.

And yes, the Horde are still Blizz's number one fave. I knew that the moment I started playing Warcraft III on it's release day when Thrall dominated the story department. Remember, that game was ALL about the rise of the Scourge/Horde. It had next to nothing in terms of development for the Alliance. In fact, every Alliance faction but one always ended up leaving the Alliance and joining Illidan or the Scourge. Even the good Alliance in the Frozen Throne you had to attack. Funny story. If you look at all the hero classes for the Alliance, you will note that every single one of them either dies or betrays the Alliance. EVERY SINGLE ONE (Well, the dwarf survived, but I doubt he'll come back to the Alliance).

In WoW? Well, Blizzard loves the Horde and they love Thrall, Blood Elves, Trolls and undead. Just look at the Burning Crusade and how they made everything so gosh darn "Belfy". You think the Draenei got any story development in the game? At least with the Blood Elves Thrall welcomes them to the Horde (Also commending you for killing members of the Alliance no less) and you get a singing moment from Lady Sylvanus to which the Alliance has no equivalent. I'm quite surprised that Horde players actually complained that the Alliance get a lot of Lore in Wrath considering that they got absolute zero in Burning Crusade. Seriously, the Sunwell Island event! Not only is it Belfy world, the belf city went through a change and the entire race got a lore update. Did the Draenei get anything? No. Not a dang thing.

The Alliance is slowly losing everything. They lost Lordaeron, they lost Quel'Thalas, they lost Kalimdor (No real stable living grounds) they lost Dalaran and they're going to lose more as time progresses. The Horde are always gaining.

Thrall is as much of a problem with this Alliance/Horde war as the new king is. Why? Look at him! All he cares about is his people. He never goes out of his way to resolve anything for the Alliance. And as I've mentioned earlier, he's actually comfortable in commending Blood Elves for slaying Alliance members. And what of Lordaeron, the once capitol of the Alliance? Of all the things the King has gone through and of all the things that the Alliance has lost since the third war, how can a person like him NOT get aggravated when hearing Thrall yell out in the distance that the once mighty Alliance capitol now belongs to "The Horde!".

Now, as an Alliance player, I find that Thrall is horrendously flawed as a leader. He has allowed himself to be blinded by his own self-righteousness to lead his people that it's the only thing he cares about. Anyone not associated with the Horde are just objects that will be treated as enemies if they "stand in their way". If Thrall really didn't want open war with the Alliance, he should have gone to Stormwind himself, in person and with respect instead of just giving a message to Jaina to give to the King.

Now am I saying that the King was right when he ordered his forces to attack the Horde in the Undercity? No, but I look at it as him doing the wrong thing, but for the right reason. His outburst should have shown Thrall that the Horde are not the only ones who have suffered and who have lost things that were dear to them. Being in their once mighty capitol (which they've lost to both the Scourge, Sylvanas and now the Horde) should have been evidence enough.

[Laibcoms]

I don't think Blizz is having faves here. I originally played Alliance, and in the eyes of the Alliance, Horde is the favorite of Blizz. I started playing Horde after my co-workers convinced me to just for the sake of having fellow WoW players in a guild from the same company. And I can tell you, in the eyes of the Horde, Alliance is the favorite of Blizz.

You can not bring 'fave of Blizz' in the argument because seriously, it is relative to the faction. Look at the Classes alone, I'm a Hunter, and I will say Rogue's should die "I don't know any skills so I will stun you to death". But I have an Allie Druid and I can handle rogues fine.

The Alliance is not losing anything. Ok, let's assume they are, who's fault was it that Quel'Thalas was lost in the first place? Alliance. Who's to blame why Lordaeron was lost? Alliance also.

Now, we can not say Alliance lost Kalimdor, they never been there, they don't have any sure footing there in the first place. The Alliance just got "some" presence there thanks to Jaina and the Night Elves. And lost Dalaran? I don't think so. Dalaran has been ever since a City-State of its own.

Finally, the "Alliance" is a UN-type organization. Dalaran is an equal member of the Alliance. They left that Alliance. The Blood Elves left that Alliance. Lordaeron disappeared from the Alliance. All thanks to the Alliance as well. The Horde wasn't even involved in the falling of the Alliance. We haven't even started talking about the Gnomes, the killing of Admiral Proudmoore and his fleet with Jaina just watching, and the absence of Stormwind (ok, Stormwind was under contruction during WC3).

Thrall on the other hand was saving what's left of his people. The "Horde" is back into being just the Orcs, that's what the "Horde" is originally - just Orcs. Humanity treated them like they are trash when they themselves are trash. Equality? Fairness? Balance?

We also know for a fact that the Horde-Alliance ceasefire is very delicate, and there are many entities in Azeroth that will do everything they can to re-ignite the war (both sides). What Thrall and Jaina did, together with the Night Elves, was something only dreamed of before, but they did it.

To move forward, sometimes you have to let go of the past. Yes it hurts, but, should we forever be chained to that of the past? The past that only leads to an endless war and bloodshed?

There is this Horde quest wherein you're to kill an Alliance Paladin's Ghost (can't remember his name), you know what he said in the end after doing it? "It's ok, I forgive you". But the almighty King of Stormwind, Wrynn can't do that? EVEN in the midst of a great war with the Lich King Arthas and the Burning Legion?

Wrynn should think first before he started acting like what he did (or will be doing) when he attacked Thrall and Sylvannas in UC. That is the biggest mistake, and now Azeroth is in the 4th War.

When he got back his throne, has he forgotten how his "Horde friends" helped him escape? If his reason is simply his personal vendetta, then he shouldn't be King in the first place, because he has clearly forgotten how the Horde Gladiator and slavery games are also composed of their fellow Horde citizens.

If I will choose between Thrall and Wrynn, I'll choose Thrall. It is no different than choosing between two evils, I'll choose the lesser evil.

It's just a personal vendetta, now that he has an Army at his disposal, he blames everything on the new Horde, bringing with him the book of the past that has been closed for years.

If Horde and Alliance will go to the 4th War, it better be for a new reason, not Wrynn's and his "living in the past" reasons.

And besides, we all know for a fact that it was the Burning Legion's doing, NOT the Horde. Both Horde and Alliance died in the Wrath Gate Betrayal of the Apothecary.

[Brakkyn]

/rant

Laibcoms said:

The Horde wasn't even involved in the falling of the Alliance.

I registered just to reply to this line right here.

The Alliance was formed because of the Horde. This is indisputable. The reason for Alliance players to participate in the Black Morass instance was because if the Horde didn't invade, there would have been no Alliance. No Horde and no Alliance meant no defense against the Burning Legion.

Secondly, the Alliance did fall--at least in part--because of the Horde. Why? Taxation leveled against the peoples of the Alliance was draining their resources. What was the tax for? Keeping the Horde alive because the Alliance refused to put them to the sword.

It didn't help that Thrall was running across the countryside, attacking internment camps...then he has the GALL to tell King Terenas that he'll stop if they GIVE THEM LAND TO LIVE ON. Land they spend years trying to conquer they now want handed to them.

As for Alliance heroes, they keep getting killed, turn traitor, or have reached insignifigance.

Arthas became the Lich King--which, by the way, is Ner'zhul, who happened to be an orc and the warchief of the Horde on Draenor. Uther was killed, betrayed by Arthas. King Terenas was killed, murdered by his own son. Turalyon and Alleria are missing and have been for years. Danath, Khadgar, and Kurdran are basically footnotes to the entire Outland experience. Rhonin, Vereesa, Tirion Fordring...all neutral now, friendly to anybody, Horde or Alliance. The Kirin Tor even set aside part of Dalaran for the Horde. Tyrande does nothing; Magni does nothing; Sylvannus is now an enemy; Malfurion is undoubtedly neutral now (Emerald Dream, next expansion, etc.)

Jaina does next to nothing. Daelin Proudmoore dead. NEXT EXPANSION! Help Rexxar kill off an Alliance hero gone berserk! Visit "CoT: Attack on Theramore Isle!" Special guest apperance by Misha, Chen Stormstout, and more!

Thrall lives, Cairne lives.

As for the seven Alliance kingdoms, Gilneas don't even exist, Kul Tiras isn't even on the map, Stromgarde is in shambles, Lordaeron--hoo, boy--Dalaran is neutral, Alterac was destroyed by the Alliance--because they betrayed them to the Horde--Stormwind is IT, and now they give us this vengeful king who is supposed to unite them and all he wants is another war with the Horde.

Orgrim Doomhammer, died a hero--how? Stabbed in the back by a human. Nevermind he led the Horde as they tried to drive humanity to the brink of extinction.

Grom Hellscream--drank the blood of Mannoroth TWICE and dies a heroes' death.

Aedelas Blackmoore--evil SOB, but still, if not for him, Thrall wouldn't be who he is today--him, and Taretha Foxton.

Most Horde players only see Alliance from the perspective of the likes of Blackmoore, Arthas, etc.

Now the Alliance has lost Bolvar. Would it have killed Blizzard to have Saurfang the ELDER die?

Honestly, from my perspective, all I see is the Alliance getting the short end of the stick…due to what, I don’t know. Thrall has always been the do-no-wrong golden boy of World of Warcraft, and it doesn’t look like that will change.

I’m a dedicated Alliance player, but I do play Horde, and I find all of the rhetoric about Horde to be a load of crap and most of the rumors about the Alliance to be unfounded. But I find it hard when I see events happen that seem to show blatant favoritism towards one faction or the other.

/rant

[pax85]

Seriously guys. It's just a game .
But I admit, the WoW Story is a delicate one.
But still, FOR THE HORDE! sorry (always liked them more)

[Svad]

Halbarad said:

I'll let you off, but equally there;s alot of Alliance who know that if in reverse the Gnomes had killed a horde hero (on there own back) Thrall would want revenge (damm those gnomes!)

edit, the alliance has also done 0 to take back or control there own area's with Lady Prestor has pretty much let every alliance zone be taken over by undead, petty thugs or orc (Westfall Duskwood and Redridge) so its natural that now someone who's "not a evil dragon" is back in control we're going to be going on the offensive, been the "good guy" doesn't mean we won't avenge a wrong done against us

Yeah the Lady Prestor is kinda good at keeping the Alliance wrongfooted, but then again, what would you expect from one of Neltharions children :-]

[rhorle]

Quote

Thrall on the other hand was saving what's left of his people. The "Horde" is back into being just the Orcs, that's what the "Horde" is originally - just Orcs. Humanity treated them like they are trash when they themselves are trash. Equality? Fairness? Balance?

so why would it start the 4th war for the king to take back Lordaeron, if the horde is only the orcs now and only cares about the orcs. The horde is all of the races, stop living in the past. Just as the alliance is not just humans. Humanity is trash? Wow hate much? The orcs treat humanity like trash too you know.

Laibcoms said:

If Horde and Alliance will go to the 4th War, it better be for a new reason, not Wrynn's and his "living in the past" reasons.
Apothecary.

The reason for King Wrynn's angst isn't just a living in the past vendetta. It has a part, no one can deny that. If the situations were reversed the horde would undoubtedly feel the same. The new horde just unleashed an attack on themselves and alliance forces, what kinda of response do you want? For a leader to not care at all?

And while it is the burning legion who did the act, they were still agents of the horde for all these years. If any one is to blame for the "4th war" it is the horde for not being able to control their own members to allow such to occur. This isn't something that is new as several people have pointed out that such a "Betrayal" by the apothecary was hinted at in quests.

You seem very keen on blaming the alliance for everything while ignoring the horde's own role in the events.

[Brakkyn]

There's a quest that starts at the ruined tower in northeastern Duskwood that's a good example. You assemble the ingredients for a poison, which is then given to an Alliance prisoner who is trying to reveal a Forsaken plan not just to the Alliance, but the Horde, as well. He dies before he can say anything.

Sylvannus knew the RAS (Royal Apothecary Society) was developing a new plague...because SHE wanted a new plague. Not just to take revenge against Arthas and the Scourge, but to scour all of Azeroth of its inhabitants.

If it wasn't the Lich King, it would be the Lich Queen, if the Forsaken had anything to say about it. The Forsaken have always seen the Horde as simply a means to an end.

[damaniac82]

It was interesting to read those comments... although i just laugh at those, who say Alliance had nothing lore wise... Yeah, of course. Check wowwiki... Half of the game pre-tbc was about nelves & druids (hell, they even had their own specific faction) Other half was about the scarlet guys. Oh, and i almost forgot the dwarves with the gazillion instances, questlines, etc about them...

Half of TBC was about draenai (Shat, BT, Auchiondoun, the whole Aldor stuff)... And some ppl keep whining about Blizz made Quel'danas, which is basically a stupid grinding place and will be totally deserted after WoTLK start?

QQ moar little alliance

[Nath]

Jeyl said:

you get a singing moment from Lady Sylvanus to which the Alliance has no equivalent.

Believe me, you don't want to hear Draenei "music". You just don't.

Brakkyn said:

Ner'zhul, who happened to be an orc and the warchief of the Horde on Draenor.

Nevermind that it was Aegwynn/Medivh who 'helped' Sargeras summon the orcs to Azeroth, nevermind that the Human/High Elf sorcery in Dalaran attracted him to that world again...

[Maodox]

Laibcoms said:

There is this Horde quest wherein you're to kill an Alliance Paladin's Ghost (can't remember his name), you know what he said in the end after doing it? "It's ok, I forgive you".

Uther, if I recall.

Brakkyn said:

The reason for Alliance players to participate in the Black Morass instance was because if the Horde didn't invade, there would have been no Alliance. No Horde and no Alliance meant no defense against the Burning Legion.

My understanding of this was that the preservation of the time ways is paramount. That we aren't to stand in judgment but to protect time from those that would abuse it. Otherwise (just my thoughts here) why not just prevent the corruption of the orcs blood in the first place? Or do something to prevent the creation of the "dark" titan(not his original creation, but his fall). However, that would make a really crappy game...

damaniac82 said:

Half of TBC was about draenai (Shat, BT, Auchiondoun, the whole Aldor stuff)...

Thanks, I was hoping someone would mention at least BT. Honestly, if you can't fill in about a thousand blanks for alliance lore simply by mentioning BT you've really missed out on some of the major lore TBC has to offer.