[chaos986]

Diedel said:

I dont like the full tier difference between 10 and 25 mans, as this will make it pretty hard to switch from 10 to 25 man. You will have to regear in the same 25 man that you already cleared countless times as a 10 man.

It sounds like gathering 25 of the 30 people from 3 kara runs and doing SSC. Only this time there is less of a wipe curve because everyone is familiar with the environment and know where to go. But I also think guilds will line up one way or the other. If they can field 25 man teams they wont bother with 10 man and if they are small they wont bother with the 25 mans untill they reach end of 10mans (doing BT at 10man then going back to SSC 25-man)

[Tom Phoenix]

Diedel said:

I dont like the full tier difference between 10 and 25 mans, as this will make it pretty hard to switch from 10 to 25 man. You will have to regear in the same 25 man that you already cleared countless times as a 10 man.

If you are in a guild that can create 25-man raids, you will not need to do any 10-mans. You can go do the 25-man raids straight away.

The two will not be requirements between each other, but two distinct paths of progression.

[Xentropy]

But why do SSC 25-man when it drops the same tier loot as the BT 10-man? It'd result in a lot of sidegrades and disenchanted drops. You'd go from the BT 10-man to the BT 25-man assuming you'd farmed out the 10-man and had recruited others at the same gear level. Which is a LOT of BT right in a row and easy to burn out on.

It'll be especially bad burning out on a larger instance, like say Naxx's 15 bosses. Merge with two other guilds who've farmed the heck out of 10-man Naxx and your reward is...more months of Naxx runs. Uuugh.

To Tom: No one's saying they'll be linked in progression, but the issue is a 10-man guild that does a recruiting drive or merges to become a 25-man guild will end up running the same instance they just finished in a one-tier-separation system. This will result in burnout, and less guilds bothering to make the leap at all.

[superjongen]

Xentropy said:

But why do SSC 25-man when it drops the same tier loot as the BT 10-man? It'd result in a lot of sidegrades and disenchanted drops. You'd go from the BT 10-man to the BT 25-man assuming you'd farmed out the 10-man and had recruited others at the same gear level. Which is a LOT of BT right in a row and easy to burn out on.

It'll be especially bad burning out on a larger instance, like say Naxx's 15 bosses. Merge with two other guilds who've farmed the heck out of 10-man Naxx and your reward is...more months of Naxx runs. Uuugh.

To Tom: No one's saying they'll be linked in progression, but the issue is a 10-man guild that does a recruiting drive or merges to become a 25-man guild will end up running the same instance they just finished in a one-tier-separation system. This will result in burnout, and less guilds bothering to make the leap at all.

Why would they make the leap anyway? If a guild decides at the start with WoTLK they prefer to do the 10-mans because they care more about content than they care for loot, it's their choice.

If they want the best loot they'll do 25-mans from the start.

I doubt a lot of guilds will change their choice during the game, since from their perspective it is (or shouldn't be) worth it.

People can however change guilds, going from a 10-man to a 25-man guild at the same instance shouldn't really be a problem, seeing as gearing up can and probably will go quite fast in WoTLK and the person will already know the basic tactics of the fight.

The 10-man and 25-man raids are in a different "progression path" like mentioned a lot before, meaning it should be hard (or illogical) tp change the path of your entire guild.

[Watcherzero]

Little addendum to Stratholm bullet point list

- The forests outside stratholm will have fallen to corruption but it wont have reached the city yet.

- As much of the existing stratholm dungeon as possible will be reused to maintain continuity, it will look how it was before the undead arrived.

[gronlaender]

Quote

PvP gear from the PvE system. Won't be the best loot, but it gives access and an early starting gear

That is fucking ridiculous!
LETS MAEK TIER6 OBTAINABLE THROUGH HONOR PLX PLX !!!!11

[superjongen]

gronlaender said:

That is fucking ridiculous!
LETS MAEK TIER6 OBTAINABLE THROUGH HONOR PLX PLX !!!!11

They didn't say pve gear from pvp system, read before you whine.
They probably mean a blue pvp set from reputation and pvp gear from the new badges I guess, just like now.

[Xentropy]

superjongen said:

Why would they make the leap anyway? If a guild decides at the start with WoTLK they prefer to do the 10-mans because they care more about content than they care for loot, it's their choice.

If they want the best loot they'll do 25-mans from the start.

I doubt a lot of guilds will change their choice during the game, since from their perspective it is (or shouldn't be) worth it.

...You really think there are a lot of large enough (i.e. 30+ active raiders) guilds out there who'd *choose* to run 10-mans instead of 25's?! In my mind, the only reason to start with 10's is because you lack the people to run 25-mans. Through either merges or continued recruitment, you work your way up in membership until you start running two 10-mans in parallel, and then finally "graduate" to 25-man. This currently happens ALL THE TIME, at least on my server, and happened even more a year ago when Kara was srs bsns and there were a lot of Kara guilds that wanted to graduate to Gruul and beyond but needed to merge or recruit to do so.

Some small guilds WILL grow over time. They just lack the people to jump straight into 25-mans at the start. Especially when the release of WotLK starts to draw near and all kinds of guilds fall apart in preparation for a new recruitment rush and new formations of new teams for the new content. On my server almost every guild disbanded (or at least became almost completely inactive) in November-December of 2006 and then new guilds formed as people hit 70. There was a LOT of turnover during those few months, followed by a lot of smaller guilds starting up, most too small to go straight after 25-man content. I expect the same thing to happen around the WotLK release.

So what do the guilds that can't raid 25-mans but would choose to if they had enough people do when they recruit enough people? Run the SAME instances they've been running, just with more people. Burnout central. No change of venue until they've geared everyone up in the 25-man version of what they've already beaten (and thus seen over and over again) with 10.

superjongen said:

They didn't say pve gear from pvp system, read before you whine.
They probably mean a blue pvp set from reputation and pvp gear from the new badges I guess, just like now.

I think he was being sarcastic and arguing that if they drop PvP gear in PvE then PvE gear should be available through PvP as well.

They said specifically that raid instances would drop more PvP gear than it does currently. Kind of annoying to me, although they also said there are going to be a lot more drops in 25-mans (something on the order of 5 drops per kill instead of the current 3) so if one of the items gets wasted on PvP it'll still be a higher drop quantity of useful loot than it is now.

[Elywienn]

I kind of liked the attunement system, it gave you this feeling of great accomplishment, back when things were actually hard and nobody had the gear. It's like cheating in singleplayer games, once the game is easy it's no longer fun.

[superjongen]

Xentropy said:

...You really think there are a lot of large enough (i.e. 30+ active raiders) guilds out there who'd *choose* to run 10-mans instead of 25's?! In my mind, the only reason to start with 10's is because you lack the people to run 25-mans. Through either merges or continued recruitment, you work your way up in membership until you start running two 10-mans in parallel, and then finally "graduate" to 25-man. This currently happens ALL THE TIME, at least on my server, and happened even more a year ago when Kara was srs bsns and there were a lot of Kara guilds that wanted to graduate to Gruul and beyond but needed to merge or recruit to do so.

Some small guilds WILL grow over time. They just lack the people to jump straight into 25-mans at the start. Especially when the release of WotLK starts to draw near and all kinds of guilds fall apart in preparation for a new recruitment rush and new formations of new teams for the new content. On my server almost every guild disbanded (or at least became almost completely inactive) in November-December of 2006 and then new guilds formed as people hit 70. There was a LOT of turnover during those few months, followed by a lot of smaller guilds starting up, most too small to go straight after 25-man content. I expect the same thing to happen around the WotLK release.

So what do the guilds that can't raid 25-mans but would choose to if they had enough people do when they recruit enough people? Run the SAME instances they've been running, just with more people. Burnout central. No change of venue until they've geared everyone up in the 25-man version of what they've already beaten (and thus seen over and over again) with 10.



I think he was being sarcastic and arguing that if they drop PvP gear in PvE then PvE gear should be available through PvP as well.

They said specifically that raid instances would drop more PvP gear than it does currently. Kind of annoying to me, although they also said there are going to be a lot more drops in 25-mans (something on the order of 5 drops per kill instead of the current 3) so if one of the items gets wasted on PvP it'll still be a higher drop quantity of useful loot than it is now.

It's hard to compare TBC with WOTLK, seeing as 10 and 25 man instances will be the same.
In TBC the only way forward was 25-man, now 10-mans have their own progression path.

But ofcourse it's all speculation, nobody can say what the majority of the raiders want.

About the guy being sarcastic, I've read the official forums too much so whine looks like whine to me whether it be sarcastic or not.

Didn't hear about the new pvp-loot yet, guess a lot of raiders and arenajunkies will be a bit pissed.

[koenigsegg]

Oh, I love 2 things here. No annoying extreme attunements and you can farm any faction you would like in any of the dungeons. And the PvP drops in PvE content (as SWP is now). Oh, and not to mention the CoT Arthas dungeon, I bet it will be WotLK most popular.

But what I wonder is if all bosses will drop Badges or will it be like early TBC? Only heroics (at start)?

[Leviathonlx]

Watcherzero said:

Little addendum to Stratholm bullet point list

- The forests outside stratholm will have fallen to corruption but it wont have reached the city yet.

- As much of the existing stratholm dungeon as possible will be reused to maintain continuity, it will look how it was before the undead arrived.

The forest outside the city is not corrupt and looks like Elwynn.

[Daehin]

i was the one asking for how legendaries were gonna drop ... and kalgan was not that clear about if the system will change or not


And btw NOONE cheered the STRENGTH and HONOR i quoted at the end ... damn hordies.....

give frostmourne for Paladins KKBBTHX

[Leviathonlx]

I was pretty disappointed in the Dungeons and Raids panel and the quality of the questions asked at the end. I was really hoping that someone in some panel or in the press or normal Q&A session would ask if Blizzard was just making Azjol-Nerub into instances and abandoned it as a zone (as it now seems in the Alpha).

[gronlaender]

superjongen said:

They didn't say pve gear from pvp system, read before you whine.
They probably mean a blue pvp set from reputation and pvp gear from the new badges I guess, just like now.

Well the blue pvp gear from rep, exist now. And still he fact that are are able to get pvp gear through pve is fucked. When you can't get get imba pve gear through pvp -.-
And for the other thing l2sarcasm

[Xentropy]

Daehin said:

i was the one asking for how legendaries were gonna drop ... and kalgan was not that clear about if the system will change or not

They proc'd their dodge trinket on so many questions it isn't even funny. Hell, I'd even like to know whether Atiesh is going to come back as a level 80 legendary item or not. They didn't even really confirm or unconfirm whether *that* would happen.

Quote

And btw NOONE cheered the STRENGTH and HONOR i quoted at the end ... damn hordies.....

The crowd was really, really quiet for almost the entire event. Diablo 3's announcement barely got a peep out of them. The loudest I heard them cheer the entire time was when they were told druids would be able to proc stuff in forms. They flipped out over that. But nothing else got more than a few isolated claps. Weird crowd. More laid back in Europe?

[ky-ou]

gronlaender said:

Well the blue pvp gear from rep, exist now. And still he fact that are are able to get pvp gear through pve is fucked. When you can't get get imba pve gear through pvp -.-
And for the other thing l2sarcasm

Well, honestly, arena sucks as a PvP system overall, but I don't care.
Honor is the easiest thing to farm in the game.
Obviously though since getting honor is so hard, we should all get free sunwell equivalent pvp loot from it right? Oh, that's already the case. Also SSC/TK Tier weapons for honor? ... Hello??