[Kultcher]

Hello, World of Raids Community! Kultcher here. I’ll be responsible for supplying you with a weekly dose of raid-related content, from esoteric stuff like raiding philosophies to more practical matters like raid troubleshooting and theorycrafting.

By way of introduction: I’m a veteran raid leader with about three years’ experience. I’ve pretty much single-handedly lead my guild’s raids since we first set foot in Karazhan. Leading a guild with decidedly casual roots has been challenging at times, and I’ve had to wear a lot of hats along the way: coach, teacher, mediator, strategist and troubleshooter, to name a few. My goal with this column is to bring you a little of the expertise I’ve gained over the years.

But first! Who doesn’t like a good editorial? I assure you there’ll be some nice crunchy mechanics stuff in future articles, but for this week I’ve got something a little less concrete in mind. Let’s talk about the future of raiding.

Wrath of the Lich King, much like the 60s, was a time of great experimentation. It produced a lot of wonderful and memorable milestones, but also resulted in a lot of horrible, haunting, and regrettable decisions. Each new raid tier brought something fresh and new to the game, for better or for worse.

Hard modes were ultimately a success. The Emblem system, while flawed in many ways, did more good than harm. Because let’s face it, forcing new people to gear up through each tier of raiding is just not practical or fun, especially for the people who have to run the new guy through it all. On the other hand, limited attempts were a disaster of epic proportions, the gating of Icecrown was in poor taste, and the stacking zonewide buff has left bad tastes in many a raiders’ mouth.

So what will the raid of the future look like? Blizzard has already hinted a little bit at their intentions for Cataclysm. We know that the Emblem system will be getting an overhaul, and we know that hard modes are here to stay. Thankfully, Blizzard has also confirmed that limited attempts will be a gimmick if anything and not a core mechanic. Huzzah!

But what about the stacking buff mechanic? It’s a good idea at its core. It’s ultimately a more elegant solution than just nerfing the instance. The fundamental problem is that there is no cost to it. For this solution to truly be accepted by the masses, accepting the buff needs to feel like giving up, just a little bit.

Here’s what I would suggest. To start, the buff should be off by default. Players could talk to an appropriate NPC to activate it. When the buff is activated, several penalties are put in place. First of all, no achievements can be gained whatsoever. There would be a separate, single achievement for clearing the whole instance with the buff, but that’s it. Second, all emblem gains while the buff is active would be cut in half. Finally, each boss would drop one less piece of loot than normal (so 1 in 10-man, 2 in 25).

With this system, guilds that need the buff could still progress (albeit more slowly), yet there would still be incentive for guilds that can defeat the encounter normally to do so. Plus, since achievements are the standard for measuring progress and the buff would preclude standard achievements, we could move past this idea of “tainted victories” from top guilds using the buff. That said, this idea would open up some new cans of worms – but I’ll examine some other possibilities in part II of this series.

So what are your thoughts on the Icecrown buff? Do you think it’ll come back in Cataclysm? Is there a better way for Blizzard to make content more accessible for the majority of the playerbase?

[Dch1948]

I do not agree with the idea that using the buff should result in penalties, certainly not any loss of loot or emblems. I could go along with revised achievements but that's about it. I'm also content with leaving the buff on by default. It's something we get as a reward for grinding away and in essence , weakening the defenses of the Citadel and the resolve of it's defenders. It makes sense to me.

This post has been edited by Dch1948: 09 March 2010 - 12:53 AM

[katuka]

Hmm the achioevement penalty seems fair, but emblems and loot should stay untouched.

[atrox]

katuka, on 09 March 2010 - 12:52 AM, said:

Hmm the achioevement penalty seems fair, but emblems and loot should stay untouched.

So, removing loot and badges. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of doing an instance doesn't it? You get the kills ofcourse and you see the content, but this game is about developing your character and moving forward with your toon.

I don't see a problem with the increasing buff. It certainly hasn't given me a "bad taste" in my mouth. You can argue that "Real raiders disable the buff", but come on... If you ever tried Sindragosa or Putricide Heroic, a 5%, 10% og even 15% buff will not make you just brute-force the encounter. You need fine tuned tactics and understanding of game mechanics before those encounters are possible. As you can also see with the Lich King, he wasn't tuned for 0% buff and he isn't even tuned for the 5% buff and we will probably only see a kill when guilds get 10% or more.

Gating Icecrown. It took too long for the first gate. Other than that, the remaining ones went down 2 weeks apart, which felt pretty fast and was alright in my oppinion. In an ideal world, no gating would be put in place, but hey, would we rather have another Black Temple situation?

I see a bright future for raiding in Cataclysm. Blizzard has really had alot of time now to get the experience needed for creating the perfect raiding enviroment. Let's hope they don't mess it up.

This post has been edited by Cameron: 09 March 2010 - 07:43 AM

[Kultcher]

atrox, on 09 March 2010 - 02:33 AM, said:

So, removing loot and badges. That kind of defeats the whole purpose of doing an instance doesn't it? You get the kills ofcourse and you see the content, but this game is about developing your character and moving forward with your toon.

I didn't suggest that all loot and emblems should be taken away. I agree it would be foolish to completely remove loot and emblem rewards for using the buff.

In retrospect, penalizing players isn't really Blizzard's style at all. Perhaps what I should have suggested is that players who didn't use the buff would gain an additional piece of loot and one or more additional emblems. That would probably be the best solution.

Lastly, while 5% or 10% is certainly not usually enough to brute force an encounter, 30% or 35% really is. In any case the biggest issue that I and many others have with the Icecrown buff is that it came out too soon. Many guilds didn't have ample time to work on the content before it was effectively nerfed. I think there is some degree of pride to saying, "We killed this boss pre-nerf," but it's really really hard to justify not using the buff when you're on a limited raid schedule and have to make downing the content the top priority.

[Emoroan]

Regarding the achievements - How is going through with the buff any worse than going through when you're 10 levels higher or in gear 2 tiers higher? People learn what the prenerf dates are only consider you good if you got the achievement before then. The only real difference this time is how soon the nerf came - although arguably it's not really in place until it's up to 30% or whatever.

I also don't think less loot is the answer, potentially slightly lower quality gear but then they'll never be able to ween themselves off needing the buff and it will require a lot more work from blizzard (especially when the people who cleared using the 10% buff start looking down on the people with the 30% buff and want them to have worse loot).

I'm actually wondering if they should just not allow the buff on encounters that haven't been downed on the server before, although that is presuming there's at least 1 competent guild on each server.

[Kultcher]

Emoroan, on 09 March 2010 - 02:58 AM, said:

Regarding the achievements - How is going through with the buff any worse than going through when you're 10 levels higher or in gear 2 tiers higher? People learn what the prenerf dates are only consider you good if you got the achievement before then. The only real difference this time is how soon the nerf came - although arguably it's not really in place until it's up to 30% or whatever.

Funny you should mention that, I was considering talking about that in the article as well but it was already starting to run long. Personally I think that you shouldn't be able to get certain achievements when you outgear or outlevel an instance. Too many achievements in WoW (and to be fair, XBox Live and other media) are really just rewards for playing the game as normal. The achievements that actually do mean something ought to be preserved, so they can truly be worn as badges of honor by those that have earned them.

For the record, I'm not speaking from super elite high horse. I haven't even done any of the meta achievements for the special mounts and whatnot, and I firmly believe that I shouldn't be able to now that I'm wearing a bunch of 264 gear.

[Keali]

Kultcher, on 08 March 2010 - 11:46 PM, said:

I didn't suggest that all loot and emblems should be taken away. I agree it would be foolish to completely remove loot and emblem rewards for using the buff.

In retrospect, penalizing players isn't really Blizzard's style at all. Perhaps what I should have suggested is that players who didn't use the buff would gain an additional piece of loot and one or more additional emblems. That would probably be the best solution.

This just seems silly to me. Your proposal has already taken away the achievements, and that is the proof that you can do the content without the need of the buff. Granting additional loot to those who are geared enough to do it without the buff really seems counter productive. If they don't need the buff then chances are they're geared far better then those that do need the buff and therefore need that extra gear you're just handing out. Again, in the same sense, granting extra badges seems silly as well, because if you're running through without the buff you probably don't need badges.

I think what this comes down to is the high end raiding guilds feeling like they were cheated because they didn't drop the Arthas before the casual raiders started gaining assistance. This feeling, coming from one in a casual raiding guild, seems rather silly to me. While you are working on strategy for the Lich King we are still working through the second wing bosses. My guild, with two 10 man raid groups running per week, has only dropped 6 bosses in there even with the buff. Does this make us inferior to your guild? You bet it does! From a raiding aspect you beat the snot out of us, even with a free buff. What does penalizing us do though? What does it accomplish other then stroke the ego of those that do not need the buff? It demoralizes those that do need it, and discourages the casual raiders from even trying. I realize you said you come from a decidedly casual guild, but your solution sure says 'Go hardcore, or go home!' to me.

I really don't mean to offend, but your first posting here is the first that has put me off from reading this web site. It came across with a general feeling that the underlying message is "Real raiders are mad because the buff is helping those non hard core guilds complete our content before we're done with it." I'm sure that's not your intent, (they wouldn't have you writing for the site if you were really that tactless), but the fact remains that your suggestion to balance the zone wide stacking buff is drastic, and yet you seem to think that this is what would appeal to the masses.

Perhaps a middle ground should be approached. A bit of a compromise if you will. Create a tiered trade off. 10% buff means no Achievements, 20% loses half the badges, and 30% reduces faction gains by half. As an alternative maybe no buff bumps up raid loot 1 tier, 10% is normal, 20% no achievements, and 30% gives half badges or half honor or something.

[Cameron]

Keali, on 09 March 2010 - 08:17 AM, said:

This just seems silly to me. Your proposal has already taken away the achievements, and that is the proof that you can do the content without the need of the buff. Granting additional loot to those who are geared enough to do it without the buff really seems counter productive. If they don't need the buff then chances are they're geared far better then those that do need the buff and therefore need that extra gear you're just handing out. Again, in the same sense, granting extra badges seems silly as well, because if you're running through without the buff you probably don't need badges.

I think what this comes down to is the high end raiding guilds feeling like they were cheated because they didn't drop the Arthas before the casual raiders started gaining assistance. This feeling, coming from one in a casual raiding guild, seems rather silly to me. While you are working on strategy for the Lich King we are still working through the second wing bosses. My guild, with two 10 man raid groups running per week, has only dropped 6 bosses in there even with the buff. Does this make us inferior to your guild? You bet it does! From a raiding aspect you beat the snot out of us, even with a free buff. What does penalizing us do though? What does it accomplish other then stroke the ego of those that do not need the buff? It demoralizes those that do need it, and discourages the casual raiders from even trying. I realize you said you come from a decidedly casual guild, but your solution sure says 'Go hardcore, or go home!' to me.

I really don't mean to offend, but your first posting here is the first that has put me off from reading this web site. It came across with a general feeling that the underlying message is "Real raiders are mad because the buff is helping those non hard core guilds complete our content before we're done with it." I'm sure that's not your intent, (they wouldn't have you writing for the site if you were really that tactless), but the fact remains that your suggestion to balance the zone wide stacking buff is drastic, and yet you seem to think that this is what would appeal to the masses.

Perhaps a middle ground should be approached. A bit of a compromise if you will. Create a tiered trade off. 10% buff means no Achievements, 20% loses half the badges, and 30% reduces faction gains by half. As an alternative maybe no buff bumps up raid loot 1 tier, 10% is normal, 20% no achievements, and 30% gives half badges or half honor or something.

I think Kultcher is trying to echo the feelings of a lot of people in raiding guilds that I see when crawling many forums. When you think about it a lot of games, both MMO and single player, have the option "Move up to the hard AI/Game play and you get more points!". It could even be compared to games where you get a better "Medal" or "Ranking" depending on how hard the content that you have done is.

[Kultcher]

@Keali: Oi, and just when I was going to go to bed. I do apologize if I've offended you, Keali. I should note that I'm only one of several new content writers here, and my opinions don't necessarily reflect what anyone else here at WoR is thinking.

My ultimate point is this: many players, both casual and hardcore, use the buff somewhat begrudgingly, because it's pretty much foolish not to use it. What I'm hoping is that for Cataclysm, if they reuse this mechanic, they do something that makes not using the buff an attractive option. It doesn't have to be anything I've suggested here, I was just tossing out some ideas.

I didn't view my suggestions as especially drastic because I put a lot more faith in skill than I do in gear. You talk about players who can go buff-less not needing the extra gear/emblems, as they're already "geared enough." You don't seem to be taking skill into account. The thing about gear is that it is ultimately a very small part of the equation. I've seen time and time again players with vastly inferior gear outplay players in top of the line stuff. I would hope that whatever mechanism they use to promote not using the buff, the goal should be to promote better play. I guess my solution was a roundabout way of trying to get people to up their game so that they could reap extra rewards (or not get penalized, it's variable depending on the specific numbers).

We can go on and on about e-peen and what-have-you, but the fact is that some players really do work their butts off to be the best at their craft, and the amount of in-game reward for that is almost nil compared to a similar player who works half as hard. I know this is echoes of the nightmarish situation of Vanilla; that's not what I'm getting at. I wish Blizzard could have executed on their idea of giving top-tier raiders more purely cosmetic rewards.

For what it's worth, I'm actually in about the same position as your guild is. We're only 7/12 in normal ICC 25. We just killed Festergut (barely, 7 seconds to spare) before the buff came out. Even though I know, for a fact, that my guild needs this buff to succeed, I still have problems with it. Because it's ultimately going to make our players that much more complacent; people will just say "Eh, we couldn't down him this week, let's wait until next week for a bigger buff," instead of actively working on upping their game.

I'm not of the uber-hardcore mentality that believes that WotLK has ruined raiding by making it too casual. On the contrary, WotLK marked the first time I was able to set foot in new content the same week it was released, and that was very exciting. I just feel that the Icecrown buff has the potential to create a new breed of lazy and unmotivated raiders, and that is what worries me.

[Xentropy]

At the most, I'd like to see a Feat of Strength (no points) involved with a buff-less full clear, but no other differences. People for whom what PEOPLE WHO AREN'T THEM are accomplishing affects their fun are doing it wrong. There's something to be said for competition for firsts and the like, but a buff available to everyone doesn't uneven the playing field, it just speeds up the firsts (including lower level firsts on slow servers who haven't even gotten those firsts yet). The same effect as more and more gear over time has, just amplified so that the gap between when the first guilds in the world finish an encounter and the last is shortened.

My server has had terrible progression from day one. Didn't clear Naxx at 60. Only one C'thun kill at 60, even, by a guild that never went back again afterward due to the terrible post-Emps trash. BT wasn't cleared for 6 months after other servers had multiple guilds that had killed Illidan. Zero M'uru kills pre 3.0. The buff means my server may get the kills other servers have 2 months later instead of 6 months. And when tiers release less than 6 months apart, this compression of time is necessary so everyone can see the content.

[Kultcher]

Hm, these comments have been very educational. I'll make this response much more succinct.

I am not your average Raids & Dungeons forums troll complaining about other guilds getting to play "my" content. I'm not trying to lord my superiority over others.

I don't want you to forgo the buff because I want to be more elite than you. I want you to forgo the buff because I believe that you can play your class better, and if you are content to rely on buffs then you have no reason to better yourself.

So I'm not an elitist jerk, but rather like your nagging parents, hovering about and saying, "You're never going to accomplish anything if you don't work for it!" Hm. Yikes. Definitely time for bed now.

[SavageJ]

Honestly, if you want to feel like you've accomplished something or if you want something to be proud of, you are in the wrong spot. WoW has gotten nothing but easier since Vanilla, with the exception of a few random bosses here and there. I'm not complaining, I think its good that I dont have to raid as much as I used to anymore just to get things done.

If you're playing this game to try and beat others at achievements or boss kills, and getting uptight about a simple optional buff, then you're missing the underlying point. Games are meant to be as fun as possible, for the most people as possible. If you really really want to feel like you've accomplished something, go train to win a gold medal at the Olympics, or prove to your boss that you do deserve that raise you've been wanting.

Being overly proud about accomplishing something in a video game before anyone else, to the point you have to complain about an optional buff and say that they should get less for not turning it off is just strange to me

[Xentropy]

Kultcher, on 09 March 2010 - 01:09 AM, said:

I don't want you to forgo the buff because I want to be more elite than you. I want you to forgo the buff because I believe that you can play your class better, and if you are content to rely on buffs then you have no reason to better yourself.

What about those who're doing 11k dps in a guild w/ a half dozen people doing 5k or lower, and you have no other guild options because your server is horrible and you work Monday and Tuesday nights when all the good guilds are raiding?

The buff's not just to ignore difficulty. It's also to help along people who are already at the top of their game and would like to see some success without having to find 24 other people at the tops of their games and also working compressed 12 hour shifts at night while the rest of the world is raiding. I can benchmark my personal success by things other than "Did the boss die? Y/N", and this buff helps change more of that question from no to yes, but doesn't change my benchmarks (other than to increase how much dps is good dps, both by the 5% directly and the shorter fights resulting in a bigger bump from higher heroism uptime). If I don't fail at boss mechanics, do dps within 3% of Rawr's "raptor jesus perfect play" output value, and have fun, then even if the boss doesn't die because 5 people I'm forced to raid with can't do more than 1k to a target dummy and stand around in fire, *I* am no less successful. If to get gear to go along with my success I need the rest of my raid buffed, so be it. Don't take my buff away.

[Dulkal]

Kultcher, on 09 March 2010 - 10:09 AM, said:

I don't want you to forgo the buff because I want to be more elite than you. I want you to forgo the buff because I believe that you can play your class better, and if you are content to rely on buffs then you have no reason to better yourself.

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree. It's not my impression that the 5% have significantly altered the equation. Bosses are slightly easier, but if I get complacent and decide I have no reason to better myself, Sindragosa has a dose of frozen reality ready for me. If the buff gets to the point where the buff is responsible for me killing Sindragosa and Lana'thel, I'm sure Arthas will take over the job. If he goes too, heroic mode unlocks.

Apparently the same is true for the great guilds, since Arthas Heroic seems to melt their faces too. Personnally, I prefer gradual buffs to having them bang their heads on it for months until Blizzard suddenly nerfs it and all the competitive guilds down i within days. With regards to the world first race, a more gradual introduction of the buff would probably work better though (1% per week rather than 5% every four weeks). That would likely see a greater spread of world firsts.

All in all, I think the stacking buff is a more elegant way of allowing casuals into the last tier of content than the sudden 30% nerf of 3.0 was. I realize that it might bring problems with mentality, but honestly, I think the mentality problem of viewing the buff as the end of the world is worse.

And the idea of punishing players incapable of killing encounters without the buff by decreasing the power of their characters (through diminished loot) just seems strange. I'm much more a fan of bragging achievements and cool looking stuff.

[Applejuicey]

You know what really makes me laugh while I browse around various forums is how some people regard others who play more than them as elitist no lifers. The amount of so called 'casuals' you see nerd raging if anyone dare suggest that harder content reward better items is astounding. Games have been around for years and just about all of them have some sort of reward system for completing harder material, that doesn't seem unfair to me.

Overall Kultcher I think you made some solid suggestions, ignore the naysayers who just don't want to see anyone else's point of view.

[Cameron]

All in all I think Kultcher's first article was a success. It presents a viewpoint in a though out well constructed way. There are people that disagree with his view point, this isn't surprising given the size WoW player base and the different play styles. One of the content writers may one day choose to put together an article about how content is too hard which would probably provoke objection from people in high end raiding guilds.

The World of Raids content team isn't told what to write, they are told what to write about, this would be a very boring site if every reader was told what they wanted to hear all the time. If an article sparks off debate, all the better. Get your thoughts in as a comment. If you want to go in depth about why you think something is wrong, or to give a viewpoint contrary to what one of our content writers thinks, post a topic on the forums. If it is good and well thought out it may even make the front page in a weekly forum watch.

Wishing you all the best with raiding!
~Cameron

[tibieffe_1918972]

don't touch anything, casuals can kill the lich king 10 in normal mode with the 30% buff (perhaps before but who cares ?)
! And let casuals do the achievement a year after you with the buff without pression and without any roster, just 20 guys who want to have fun for 2 hours

[Galtraan]

This thread is shameful for this great website and it's really ruining its image. I'll not add any personal opinion, simply THIS kind of threads SHOULD NOT become top articles for the site, since they show a personal view spiced with disrespectful words. A real ARTICLE should have an objective point of view, positive suggestions, facts, numbers and various opionions summarized, in order to give a full idea of the present point of view of the community; instead I can only see the point of a bunch of whiners and a few clever persons.
Now you can start blaming me, but the fact is that you've just ruined a nice thing.

[Cameron]

Galtraan, on 09 March 2010 - 12:53 PM, said:

This thread is shameful for this great website and it's really ruining its image. I'll not add any personal opinion, simply THIS kind of threads SHOULD NOT become top articles for the site, since they show a personal view spiced with disrespectful words. A real ARTICLE should have an objective point of view, positive suggestions, facts, numbers and various opionions summarized, in order to give a full idea of the present point of view of the community; instead I can only see the point of a bunch of whiners and a few clever persons.
Now you can start blaming me, but the fact is that you've just ruined a nice thing.

The present point of view of the World of Warcraft community is.....

• We want vanilla servers
• We do NOT want vanilla servers
• Vanilla was great
• Vanilla was rubbish
• Class X is overpowered and class Y is underpowered
• Class Y is overpowered and class X is underpowered
• Content is too easy
• Content is too hard
• Blizzard selling premium services is SHAMEFUL
• Blizzard selling premium services is great.
• Cataclysm is going to ruin the game
• Cataclysm is going to be GREAT!

This "present point of the community" is harder to find than a needle in a stack of needles

However could you point out what was "Disrespectful"?