[WoRBot]

Icecrown Citadel Raid Access Progression

This doesn't come as a huge surprise since Ghostcrawler let slip of it in our interview with him, but check out the planned progression for raid access in Icecrown Citadel below.

Quote

Quote from: Daelo (Source)

Icecrown Citadel testing has been progressing very well over the last few weeks, and this has been a huge help to the encounter design team. I want to thank everyone who has logged onto the PTR and tried the encounters there.

As we're now getting closer to the release of 3.3.0, I wanted to talk about our plans for access progression within Icecrown Citadel. Icecrown Citadel is going to be broken up into four distinct sections: The Lower Spire, Plagueworks, Crimson Hall, and Frostwing Halls. We plan on releasing these four sections of Icecrown Citadel over time and not all immediately when patch 3.3.0 goes live. At this point I can't give precise dates for these release dates as they are determined by when patch 3.3.0 goes live. Once dates are known with more certainty, I'll update the community so they can plan appropriately.

The first section that opens will include the Lord Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, Icecrown Gunship Battle, and Deathbringer Saurfang encounters. Progress beyond that point will be prevented for several weeks. Then the Plagueworks will open with Rotface, Festergut, and Professor Putricide becoming available. After another period of time, the Crimson Hall will open and you can then fight the Blood Princes and Blood-Queen Lana'thel. The final Frostwing Halls unlock then occurs after that, making Valithria Dreamwalker, Sindragosa, and the Lich King available. We believe a staggered release of the content will allow players to experience Icecrown Citadel at a sustainable, measured, and ultimately more enjoyable pace.

There are other elements that gate access along the way. Players may not attempt any Heroic versions of 10 player encounters until they have defeated the Lich King in a 10 player raid. Similarly, players must defeat the Lich King in a 25 player raid before they can attempt a Heroic 25 player encounter. So players must master every normal difficulty encounter in Icecrown Citadel before attempting Heroic difficulty.

The Lich King may not be attempted until Professor Putricide, Blood-Queen Lana'thel, and Sindragosa are defeated. Furthermore, the Heroic difficulty of The Lich King encounter may not be attempted in any week unless the three aforementioned encounters have been defeated in Heroic difficulty that week.

The Ashen Verdict provides reinforcements and material for players to assault Icecrown Citadel, but this support is not endless. Raids will have a limited number of attempts total each week to defeat the four most difficult encounters in Icecrown Citadel: Professor Putricide, Blood-Queen Lana'thel, Sindragosa, and the Lich King. As these boss encounters are unlocked, the number of attempts available per week will increase. The initial number of attempts provided for defeating Professor Putricide is only five. When Blood-Queen Lana'thel unlocks, the amount of total attempts remaining will increase to 10. Then when Sindragosa and the Lich King unlock, 15 total attempts will be available to defeat all four bosses. After a raid has exhausted their attempts for the week, the Ashen Verdict must withdraw their support and the four most difficult bosses all despawn and become unavailable for the week. The limited attempt system is a feature of both Normal and Heroic difficulty.

There will be no explicit rewards for defeating the Lich King with a specific number of attempts remaining as there was with Trial of the Grand Crusader. There will also not be an achievement to complete Icecrown Citadel without being defeated by a boss encounter, or letting a raid member die. (i.e. A Tribute to Insanity).

In the weeks and months after all twelve encounters are unlocked, additional attempts against the final four boss encounters become available. This represents the Ashen Verdict growing more powerful and gaining a stronger foothold in Icecrown Citadel. To further help raids, Varian Wrynn and Garrosh Hellscream will begin to provide assistance by inspiring the armies attacking Icecrown Citadel. This is represented as an additional zone wide spell effect applied to all players that will increase their hit points, damage dealt, and healing done. This effect will also increase in effectiveness over time. Players may opt out of the spell's effect if they so wish.

[Leviathonlx]

Pretty terrible way to do the instance in my opinion. With this gating it basically means guilds will be stuck raiding only 1-2 days a week for several weeks before a whole 3 more bosses open up and then several more weeks for 2 bosses and so on. The 5 attempts bit seems a bit too low also especially if it's the same attempts for both normal and heroic and should at least be 10. Of course limiting attempts on a normal mode seem counter intuitive to what Blizzards goals have been with this expansion and they don't give an idea of how quick attempts will be added after all 12 are open.

Just I hate TOC (like most people) and dislike how basically a raid week for several weeks will involve likely a hour and a half or so in Icecrown followed by 50 minutes clearing ToC and another hour for TotGC (or the rest of the week there on Anub for many). With how they have inflated ILvLs far too much in WotLK there is no point in running Ulduar unless you really want Trumph badges since the gear there is a downgrade to even the new 5 man. Ulduar was perfect and was lasting more than long enough for your average player and there was no reason to do what they did to TOC with Icecrown when it isn't like Icecrown is a small instance.

Of course this gating probably wouldn't bother me so much if there was more in this patch. The gating for Sunwell never bothered me once since time flew by as I enjoyed the Isle of Quel'danas and they should of did a Quel'danas type thing for Icecrown. If I was designing Icecrown I would of had us break in through Azjol-Nerub via the area where we killed Anub'arak which would of made FAR more sense than somehow managing to come in the front door. With that Azjol-Nerub area they could of made a daily questing hub involving a siege to break into the lower sections of the Citadel which would of gave much more depth to the raid than waltzing in the front door. Just right now there is almost nothing else actually new in 3.3 except a gated 5 man and raid while there isn't a single new daily and Crystalsong continues to go unfinished (probably forever now).

Blizzard has really just dropped the ball with raiding content in WotLK. If Blizzard would of kept with the original story and plans for WotLK I think the raids we'd have right now would be far funner and we would of never seen the half assed instance that is the Colliseum. From what is known from the Alpha and early Beta the final boss of Ulduar was someone Loken (named Kronus at the time) called Father and Yogg-Saron was likely meant to be the final boss of the Azjol-Nerub raid that was supposed to be in the Azjol-Nerub zone (and likely meant to be the original 3.2 raid). I just hope Blizzard does not falter so much with the raid progression in Cataclysm like they did in this expansion and keeps with their plans.

I was thinking of looking for a guild before Icecrown came out, but now think it would be best to remain retired and let my account cancel in the next week until the gating is for the most part done similar to what I did for TOC since I know I will get incredibly bored having to continue doing the borefest Colliseum after only 4 ICC bosses.

This post has been edited by Leviathonlx: 18 November 2009 - 08:30 PM

[Xentropy]

I agree with Levi. This wouldn't be nearly as big a deal if the PREVIOUS tier we'll be forced to spend time still running when we run out of new tier attempts or bosses wasn't already tiny and overexperienced. The last thing I want to do after 3.3 comes out is go one-shot everything in ToC25 for the eleventy billionth time, but that's exactly what I'll be doing when the 4 whole bosses go down in one night. Or when the 6 whole bosses go down and we use up our 5 attempts on the one harder boss (or down all 7) in one night. It won't be until the second unlock, two times "several weeks" after 3.3's release, that ICC *might* actually take more than one 5-hour night of raiding to either clear or run out of attempts in.

The gating itself wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean NO heroic modes whatsoever for months after 3.3's release. The attempts wouldn't be so bad if they were only limited on heroic modes and once you're out you could drop to normal to clear what's left. I actually like the idea of a ramping buff over time; previous raids have always functionally done this anyway via incremental nerfs of the content. But the rest of what's being implemented here is horrible. As a good raider stuck carrying some mediocre (or all-out bad) raiders who love to stand in fire, at least currently we can keep plugging away until we get a lucky RNG attempt where all the avoidable damage targets the 15 good raiders instead of the 10 who'll stand there and die. With 5 attempts, that good RNG won't come around for that WEEK so I get to go clear ToC25 regular again again again again and still have ToC25 heroic beasts be a cockblock because we don't have 95k rdps to down both Snobolds and Gormok in time. Yay?

This game is completely missing medium-difficulty encounters right now. I was hoping ICC would fix that. But now I've lost hope that it will. Either things will be so easy we'll clear the limited amount of bosses quickly and then have to run ToC more (when I've already been sick of ToC since September) or things will be so hard we'll run out of attempts...and then have to run ToC more. The "best" thing that can happen to me in my guild situation is that one of the non-attempt-limited bosses is difficult but not impossible so I can have some fun learning that boss. The hardest bosses, if even slightly difficult, will require literally months of learning at just 5 attempts per week for the 10 raiders we 15 are carrying. Sweet!

[Deployed]

Having limited attempts on 'Normal' AND gating on Normal is what get's me a little bit. In a way, I understand it, it reduces the "complete abandonment" of ToC and Ulduar.

However, as mentioned before, I liked the "attempts" system because it gave those that chose to work towards a very difficult achievement/reward something to do once they got past "casual mode". Not only have they decided not to even have an achievement for keeping an ID wipe free, they're imposing a mechanic that will be very stressful for casual guilds.

So we lose two things here. The distinction between a really strong raid guild and a casual guild is removed (admittedly, it wasn't a popular idea in ToC, but being "the best" is not meant to be available to all), and things get much harder (and less fun) for casuals. Two very important distinctions to WotLK raiding (even if one was only introduced in 3.2) altered.

However, I am interested in seeing how it plays out. I just hope our raid leader doesn't start kicking players that cause wipes. At least it's not being applied to all of the bosses.

Shame that we're just not going to have enough to do for the couple of weeks when the guilds that do know what they're doing clear what's available in 2 hours. I'm starting to think I was right with my 3.1 assessment. Not only was it a mistake to release Halls of Stone/Lightning before 3.1, it was also a mistake to release Icecrown before 3.2 and to release it with every quet available.

[Marooned]

gogo post in official forums that we don't want limited number of tries for encounters...

[Leviathonlx]

Marooned said:

gogo post in official forums that we don't want limited number of tries for encounters...

Trust me it's been said in the forums a lot...about 20 pages worth of times on the R&D forum topic Needless to say this decision is turning out to be very unpopular.

[Marooned]

Leviathonlx said:

Trust me it's been said in the forums a lot...about 20 pages worth of times on the R&D forum topic Needless to say this decision is turning out to be very unpopular.

the fact that they are also doing this on normal modes hits us casuals very bad too. I play with bunch of noobi friends and we like the fun of wiping and putting some hours on bosses (while not having the power to do hardmodes) so it totally sux from our point of view also

[Chrono]

Everyone I've spoken to over at #worldofraids is very very dissapointed with this new gating system and these, mostly, hardcore raiders are all talking about quitting if Blizzard continues with these plans. Maybe not during ICC but if this stupid gating continues into Cata.....


Very bad design choice by Blizzard.

[Lobex]

I fully agree with regards to the fact that Azjol-Nerub, a place rich with lore and history and where Yogg Saron was originally supposed to be anyway (as shown in WC3) should have been the 3.2 raid, NOT the Craptastic Coliseum, which is almost universally considered to be a joke and an insult. But Blizz got lazy, and knew they could get away with it, because people would still play.

AND THEY WERE RIGHT.

Now they're gonna pull the same BS, proving they don't give a rat's ass about consumer feedback, and everyone is going to KEEP PLAYING.

You want results? Hit em were it hurts-their pockets.

But who are we kidding-they're probably TRYING to drive people from WoW to ease the transition over to their next RPG, which we'll all see along with D3 and SC2 when they all come out in about 20 years....along with the next Duke Nukem :-D

[Deployed]

Thing is, they do listen to the consumers, and this is actually proof.

One of the main things that players complained about regarding the ToGC attempts was how hard it was to get the best of the best loot by being wipefree/deathfree. This aspect is NOT being used in ICC. They listened to us.

Players complained about the removal of attunements (which was removed because of people complaining about attunements). Due to people also complaining about being allowed to simply storm through an entire instance in one day straight away, but they wish to keep normal versions "casual", gating is the (currently) best way to slow players down.

I'm seeing a devide here about what is "hardcore". Is it being fast or being skilled? I thought that the tributes were the best attempt at having a "skill" system, but people complained about not being able to obtain them. Now we're where we are with ICC. Players have offered all of these "suggestions", the devs haven't plucked them out of thin air....well, except for the finer details anyway.

[Lobex]

Deployed said:

Thing is, they do listen to the consumers, and this is actually proof.

One of the main things that players complained about regarding the ToGC attempts was how hard it was to get the best of the best loot by being wipefree/deathfree. This aspect is NOT being used in ICC. They listened to us.

Players complained about the removal of attunements (which was removed because of people complaining about attunements). Due to people also complaining about being allowed to simply storm through an entire instance in one day straight away, but they wish to keep normal versions "casual", gating is the (currently) best way to slow players down.

I'm seeing a devide here about what is "hardcore". Is it being fast or being skilled? I thought that the tributes were the best attempt at having a "skill" system, but people complained about not being able to obtain them. Now we're where we are with ICC. Players have offered all of these "suggestions", the devs haven't plucked them out of thin air....well, except for the finer details anyway.

Very few people complained about lack of attunements-they were a pain in the ass and halted progression when new players had to be brought in. And NO ONE, not ONE DAMN PERSON, thought limited attempts to LEARN OR FIGHT a boss was a good idea. Limited attempts for a mount or title, perhaps. But no one wants to spend the next 4 months just trying to get to freakin Arthas...on NORMAL mode. It's just a shameless, transparent method to stretch out content until Cataclysm is done. Rather then offer us substance, they offer us lockouts and ridiculous rates of progression.

[Matija]

Chrono said:

Everyone I've spoken to over at #worldofraids is very very dissapointed with this new gating system and these, mostly, hardcore raiders are all talking about quitting if Blizzard continues with these plans. Maybe not during ICC but if this stupid gating continues into Cata.....


Very bad design choice by Blizzard.

The system implemented hurts everyone, from hardcores to casuals, not just top guilds.

Gating system will slow down top guilds.
Limited tries will slow down everyone who can't kill a boss after a 'first' try.

[Deployed]

How many people complain about something is largely irrelevant when it comes to design, it's WHY they're complaining.

In the case of removing attunements, it barred casuals from raids, almost completely singlehandedly preventing the existance of casual raid guilds. As we know, this was fixed, but due to the very basic implementation of level 80 Naxxramas, players started to mention that things need to be done to slow raid progression down.

Now, again, not a huge amount of players did, but raiders of all walks did point out the problems. This is why (in my opinion) the root cause of a seperate issue with raids in WotLK where every single raid feels different because of how they operate. Nothing has or will work like Naxx80, nothing has or will work like Ulduar and nothing has or will work like ToC again, because they all had major flaws.

Blizzard are trying to fix this. Now, back to my comment about attunements and how and why gating is being used, I need to clarify. As mentioned, players were steamrolling content, never a good thing. It's more of an indication of raid time available and less of an indication of skill, which in turn creates an unrealistic gap between "professional" hardcore raid guilds and "zerg" raid guilds. I thought ToGC had got it right. The change from normal to heroic was drastic, but I felt it needed to be done to truely show raids that are organised and those that just have more time.

This is why peroidic gating (a controlled form of attunement gating) is NOT a bad thing. It helps keep away from the "FIRST!!oneone" mentality from raids, but it doesn't force the unrealistic gap.

The problem with periodic gating, however, is how helpless a player feels in controlling it. Lore lovers should be able to enjoy it more as long as there are in-game events to cover it. Rush guilds will hate it, because that's all they have.

I doubt my guild will do it this time, but with ToC, we simply waited until all 5 bosses were available. We're not in a rush, but due to how much time there is between 3.2 and 3.3, coupled with the dullness of ToC after the sixth run, I doubt we will this time. Luckily most of us will be working on Quel'delar during the first week or two, so we have an alternative there.

I agree with the attempts of Normal setting being a bit off. I do understand it though. "Hey guys, we're going to wipe at 10% on normal until I am certain you have the basic mechanics for the fight done, then we'll switch to heroic and just learn the "minor" changes there, hopefully we'll get it done in the 5 attempts". To be honest, after a couple of weeks, the first attempts limited boss will be one hit on normal for most guilds. Individual mistakes will not gimp the raid on normal like it will on heroic, but that's why I'm playing the "wait and see" game with how it will function on normal.

My concern that it will remove a lot of the fun for casual raiders, however, still stands.

[SchlumpfVI]

Matija said:

The system implemented hurts everyone, from hardcores to casuals, not just top guilds.

Gating system will slow down top guilds.
Limited tries will slow down everyone who can't kill a boss after a 'first' try.

Don't see where my Guild gets hurt. We can encounter the first bosses, without the annoyance of a PTR.
The alternative solution would be, waiting for new content (whole ICC) and getting bored of 2-3 hours of high end raidcontent.
I can live with Blizzard's solution. ~

This post has been edited by SchlumpfVI: 19 November 2009 - 09:57 AM

[Leviathonlx]

Deployed said:

Thing is, they do listen to the consumers, and this is actually proof.

One of the main things that players complained about regarding the ToGC attempts was how hard it was to get the best of the best loot by being wipefree/deathfree. This aspect is NOT being used in ICC. They listened to us.

Players complained about the removal of attunements (which was removed because of people complaining about attunements). Due to people also complaining about being allowed to simply storm through an entire instance in one day straight away, but they wish to keep normal versions "casual", gating is the (currently) best way to slow players down.

I'm seeing a devide here about what is "hardcore". Is it being fast or being skilled? I thought that the tributes were the best attempt at having a "skill" system, but people complained about not being able to obtain them. Now we're where we are with ICC. Players have offered all of these "suggestions", the devs haven't plucked them out of thin air....well, except for the finer details anyway.

Attunements were far better than this gated crap and Blizzard apparently forgot how to stretch content out without artificial gates. They could EASILY gate the content by making a 'gateway'/gearcheck boss such as 40 man Naxx Patchwerk, Shahraz in BT, Brutallus in Sunwell or Kael'thas but instead they want to do something that is FAR more annoying. I didn't mind wiping on any of those above bosses for over a month but that was since it was FUN always getting closer and closer to downing the boss and it felt like a huge accomplishment when we did. Gateway bosses might be too hard for 'casuals' but it would eventually get nerfed anyway or the stacking buff would of just got them through it eventually.

SchlumpfVI said:

Don't see where my Guild gets hurted. We can encounter the first bosses, without the annoyance of a PTR.
The alternative solution would be, waiting for new content (whole ICC) and getting bored of 2-3 hours of high end raidcontent.
I can live with Blizzard's solution. ~

You do realize that you are waiting for the whole instance (hence why it's ALL be tested except Arthas for obvious reasons). It isn't like they are doing this to finish the instance to patch in the rest later and it it is solely to artificially stretch the content out. I doubt anyone would get bored 2-3 hours later if it wasn't gated since I doubt a guild wouldn't use up the small amount of attempts before the end of the night on all 5 bosses before the Lich King. And even if they did I know for a fact the hard modes won't be cleared that quickly the week after (which is the content that matters for the top guilds).

This post has been edited by Leviathonlx: 19 November 2009 - 09:04 AM

[Xentropy]

Deployed said:

I agree with the attempts of Normal setting being a bit off. I do understand it though. "Hey guys, we're going to wipe at 10% on normal until I am certain you have the basic mechanics for the fight done, then we'll switch to heroic and just learn the "minor" changes there, hopefully we'll get it done in the 5 attempts". To be honest, after a couple of weeks, the first attempts limited boss will be one hit on normal for most guilds. Individual mistakes will not gimp the raid on normal like it will on heroic, but that's why I'm playing the "wait and see" game with how it will function on normal.

If that were the reason for limited attempts on normal, they'd still let you make unlimited normal attempts after you were out, it'd just lock out being able to switch to heroic. No, the reason for limited attempts is to delay casual raiders from getting to Arthas just like they're delaying the hardcore raiders with the timed gates. I don't expect my guild, because of all the idiots we have stand in fire, to see Arthas before level 85, because the limited attempts will mean we're hosed. We have to right now keep attempting until we get RNG that always applies fire to the 15 raiders we have who know how to use their movement and, y'know, AVOID the fire. The 10 who stand in fire dying DOES affect us because they at least know how to stand there and dps, just not also move and avoid junk. So we lose their dps and wipe, and try again until the RNG doesn't target those 10 people. With 5 or 10 or 15 attempts, there's no way that RNG is going to come around for weeks or months. Bad mojo.

Limited attempts on normal is the death knell of raiding guilds forced to use fail raiders just to fill the raid. No way to turn on heroic mode for MONTHS after 3.3's release is the death knell of hardcore guilds who will be bored as hell of Icecrown before they're even allowed to click the Heroic button because 9 out of 12 bosses will be one-shot dead dozens of times to those guilds before Heroic even unlocks.

Those two things are the broken parts of this system. One broken for the low-end guilds, one for the high-end. Everyone gets screwed.

[Kody]

I don't think it's to delay casual raiders from getting to Arthas. Your ability to commit hours at a time to a boss doesn't usually dictate how many attempts it takes you to kill it. I think it's intended to make getting to Arthas feel rewarding. But will it?

[Chrono]

Kody said:

I don't think it's to delay casual raiders from getting to Arthas. Your ability to commit hours at a time to a boss doesn't usually dictate how many attempts it takes you to kill it. I think it's intended to make getting to Arthas feel rewarding. But will it?

No.

[Falze]

bit of a possible noobish question (I'm a bit delirious tonight) but will the week's limited attempts persist through a raid lock extension?

[Leviathonlx]

Falze said:

bit of a possible noobish question (I'm a bit delirious tonight) but will the week's limited attempts persist through a raid lock extension?

If you had 3 attempts left and extended the raid then you'd still have 3 attempts.