[Brozenhammer]

Deployed said:

, and then the events at LHC occured and Naxxramas moved.

What does the Large Hadron Collider have to do with Naxxramas?

[Chrono]

Brozenhammer said:

What does the Large Hadron Collider have to do with Naxxramas?

It created a wormhole and transported Naxx to Northrend

[Leviathonlx]

Deployed said:

Are we talking about the events from the Ashbringer comic? Because those events are pre-WoW, or rather, that's how I read them to be. If they've turned up in the other comic series, the one based around Varion, then that's something I'm not up to date on.

I suppose the appearance of Naxxramas would suggest that the comic is based during the events of Vanilla. In which case, I'm going with the "Renault did die at during the events of level 60 wow" because of the idea is that Darion found Naxxramas, which opened the gates for many failed attempts on killing KT (i.e. it was the precursor to the Naxxramas patch 1.11), and then the events at LHC occured and Naxxramas moved.

Sadly this is opinion, and for the most part, that's all anyone can give. Unless we're given a proper timeline to work with, we just don't know. How much of the start of WotLK is suppose to be occurring at the same time as TBC? People have said that each expansion is suppose to add a year to the time line, but it just doesn't tie up.

A time line of get some more of these stories into the game. A bit late to ask for that though, since old 1-60 is possibly getting changed, and so many people still guage character level as "the order of things".

The events of the comic occured at the end of vanilla WoW. Basically the players ever going to Naxxramas at 60 was retconned to Darion and his group going inside instead. A full year between expansions works well since Naxxramas moved a bit before Acherus came making the entire DK experience after TBC. The entire DK's having to go through Outland is nothing but for gameplay reasons. It's just like how a new character leveling up in a post Cataclysm world then goes after Illidan and the Lich King and then comes back to a post Cataclysm Azeroth is for gameplay reasons.

weegel said:

Saurfang will be a DK, Bolvar will most certainly not. In the Wrathgate video you see Arthas consuming Saurfangs soul when he strikes him down, but Bolvar does not die to Arthas but the Forsaken. And Arthas retreats so its unlikely the body was retrieved by the scourge. And since Alexstraza lands at the end of Wrathgate the Immolated Champion of the Yogg vision makes kinda sense. I guess Bolvar's soul was saved by Alexstraza somehow.

The visions during Yogg-Saron make it very clear that the Scourge did get a hold of Bolvars body. While it looked like dragons lit the place on fire right after the plague it most likely did take some time for the dragons to get there.

Hathor said:

I was under the impression that Frostmourne is shattered and the hilt becomes the Legendary axe Shadowmourne? If so doesn't it kind of make this a moot point?

That's Quel'delar. Shadowmourne is made out of the remnants of Arthas' old weapon.

morgaur said:

I'm still wondering why everyone associates Frostmourne with being the Lich King. Arthas spent half WC III and all the Frozen Throne having Frostmourne but didn't became the Lich King until he took the Frozen Crown, merging Ner'zhul's soul with his own. Also, the lore in WC III indicates that the Burning Legion is responsible for the creation of the Frozen Crown but NOT Frostmourne, that would have been forged by Ner'zhul.

Anyway, on topic: I don't know who to vote, but I'm more with those that think of the dreadlords. However, I don't think about Mal'Ganis, but maybe one of those 3 sent afterwards to recover control over the Scourge: Varimathras, Balnazzar and Detheroc. Of those 3, we know what has happened to Varimathras and Balnazzar, but don't have any idea of Detheroc's whereabouts. Yes, he was technically killed in WC III, but so was Balnazzar, and Mal'Ganis. I wouldn't be very surprised if he had been hidden all along as a known friendly NPC.

He didn't become the Lich King until Ner'zhul was able to attempt to merge his soul but the Frostmourne itself still steals souls which means there is something more to the sword that we do not know. And Frostmourne was forged by the Burning Legion just like the armor since a spirit in a frozen block of crystal isn't very capable of crafting things It won't surprise me if we find out Arthas didn't get rid of Ner'zhul as much as he thinks and he is just hiding within the blade.

[riles22]

one word: Hogger

[Daodan]

Way too much doom-mongering in that article IMO. It's solely based on one general assumption, being

Quote

It's almost a given that someone is going to take the reigns from Arthas (the Lich King) at the end of Icecrown Citadel: The Frozen Throne and be the next big-baddie once Deathwing is finally taken out.

... which I haven't heard about before at all and which, to me, doesn't even sound all that plausible.

Besides, I don't really think any of the proposed characters would make a good primary villain or would at all be likely to be so. For every one of them it's intentionally seeing the dark side of things, while sometimes they're truthfully nowhere to be found.

Still, I would be interested in seeing who they barf up as the next main villain after Deathwing. Sargeras would be overkill.

[Leviathonlx]

Daodan said:

Still, I would be interested in seeing who they barf up as the next main villain after Deathwing. Sargeras would be overkill.

Azshara will be after Deathwing considering they are building her up in Cataclysm to get her more known.

[Daodan]

Oh, I was actually under the impression she was gonna be in Cataclysm, and consequently as a raidable boss.

Would she really be more powerful than Deathwing?

[totti]

Personally I hope blizz avoids making a new LK unless its Nerzhul seeing that would be a good gateway for the legion to start a new offensive. With Nerzhul back to "his old self" and the dreadlords having a vengeance to get him.

That could easily also include Azshara and have a really good lore value, the Alliance and the Horde having to intervene to avoid the Legion to overun Azeroth to get Nerzhul`s soul for eternal torment.

We still have some old gods left to take care of (2 or 3?), having them involved in the events in 3.3 would also create lots of new lore paths. And we are bound to having to fight a new old god in Cata due to Deathwing causing so much havoc on Azeroth, would be fitting that the old gods again start some action that can keep us busy when we have given the 3rd big black dwagon head to SW or Org.

From a lore standpoint now is a time to create a lot more of action and to give us new goals, seeing Arthas has been a goal for so long.

[edewen]

imo

wrynn captures thrall in the battle while jaina is a bystander between the two clashing. jaina dies forcing arthas to regain control over his thoughts forcing a split between him and nerzhul. arthas kills sylvannas in the fight and makes his penance by taking over leadership of the forsaken. nerzhul escapes with his life to rebuild his strength as the lich king. sindragosa injured is killed in the final escape by none other then deathwing himself making his appearance spawning the beginning of cata. alextrazas appearance forces deathwing to escape as he is not yet ready for that battle to come to pass. saurfang too overwhelmed with guilt over killing his undead son does not rival garrosh in leadership of the horde. garrosh rebuilds org to be stronger then ever.

[Leviathonlx]

Daodan said:

Oh, I was actually under the impression she was gonna be in Cataclysm, and consequently as a raidable boss.

Would she really be more powerful than Deathwing?

Well in the War of the Ancients Mannoroth realized much to his disliking that Azshara rivaled the lords of the Legion and it's pretty likely she is even more powerful now after being powered the the Old Gods and after 10 thousand years.

[Fengor]

Kody said:

*snipped I just think this needs the attention of the WoR leaders*

While I normally enjoy wading through walls of lore text I just want to speak up on this one point, not sure if anyone else has mentioned it but here goes. I'm warning people ahead of time, if you haven't read Rise of the Lich King yet this post contains the major plot twist at the end of the book.

Quote

What do you think? What are the chances of one of these characters succumbing to the whispers of Arthas and Ner'zhul, taking on the armor of the Burning Legion?

Did you guys read Christie Golden's book on Arthas at all? If you did you would have read the ending where he kills off both his remaining humanity AND the spirit of Ner'zhul

So no, there is no more "voice of Ner'zhul" controlling Arthas, he's now acting of his own free will, or so it would seem. Seeing as that all took place before Wrath, lore wise, everything Arthas has done in the current expansion has been of his own accord.

There is no more Ner'zhul and there is no more hope for redemption. It's all summed up in a very chilling quote from the end of the book that gives you understanding to the magnitude of what's happened.

[I]" 'No,' Arthas whispered. 'No we. No one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you--now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready. The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished' "[/I]

This is a grave, grave oversight by those leading WoR, this does very largely change the story that will unfold at Ice Crown Citadel. How exactly is not within my grasp but any conception you may hold about how this expansion is going to end is merely speculation and after that little nugget from Christie Golden all speculation goes out the window and we're left only wondering.

And yeah I was at blizzcon and heard Metzen say they have plans for Frostmourne, but those plans don't necessarily mean its going to stay in the hands of evil. Who am I to say though Blizzard has thrown us some hefty curveballs in the past.

--EDIT--
Read over some of the lengthier posts now that I got the nerd rage off my chest and there's alot of talk abotu Ner'Zhul just being banished. He's not banished he's dead, gone, not comming back. Allow me to cite another quote from the ending of Rise of the Lich King.

"Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner'zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all.

And if I might go further detailing the death of his humanity.

"Frostmourne descended. The boy cried out, his shocked, betrayed anguished cry--that of the wind raging outside-- and for a moment Arthas saw him standing there, the blade buried in his chest almost as big as he was, and felt one final tremor of remorse as he met his own eyes.

Then the boy was gone. All that remaind of him was the bitter keening of the wind scouring the tormented land.

It felt...marvelous. It was only with the boy's passing that Arthas truly realized how deadful a burden this last struggling scrap of humanity had been. He felt light, powerful, purged. Scoured clean, as Azeroth would soon be. All his weakness, his softness, everything that had ever made him hesitate or second-guess himself-- it was wall gone, now.

This post has been edited by Fengor: 12 October 2009 - 03:09 PM

[mucho]

Daodan said:

Sargeras would be overkill.

Why? We've been fighting and defeating Old Gods, Aspects, etc. While Sargeras would represent the baddest of the baddest, I don't see why fighting and defeating him at the end of WoW (and there is going to be an end) would be overkill.

In all honesty, I (and many, many others) would disappointed in the extreme, if we never get a crack at Sargeras. It would leave the book opened if we left WoW and he was still lurking around, able to causing trouble.

Fengor said:

" 'No,' Arthas whispered. 'No we. No one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you--now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready' "

This is a grave, grave oversight by those leading WoR, this does very largely change the story that will unfold at Ice Crown Citadel. How exactly is not within my grasp but any conception you may hold about how this expansion is going to end is merely speculation and after that little nugget from Christie Golden all speculation goes out the window and we're left only wondering.

Erm, all that clarifies is that Nerzul is not coming back in any form or fashion. All other speculation is both valid and fun

Leviathonlx said:

Azshara will be after Deathwing considering they are building her up in Cataclysm to get her more known.

Why not during Cataclysm? Much like we fought Yogg during LK, why not Azshara during Cataclysm. In fact, I'd dare say the same Old God that twisted Deathwing could be the same Old God that "rescued" Azshara and her Highborne. That Old God could very well be the final boss of Cataclysm. Its more likely though, that that Old God is in a raid before Deathwing.

EDIT: Ignore last paragraph, didn't know that tidbit from Blizzcon...Thx for the info

This post has been edited by mucho: 12 October 2009 - 03:08 PM

[Leviathonlx]

mucho said:

Why? We've been fighting and defeating Old Gods, Aspects, etc. While Sargeras would represent the baddest of the baddest, I don't see why fighting and defeating him at the end of WoW (and there is going to be an end) would be overkill.

In all honesty, I (and many, many others) would disappointed in the extreme, if we never get a crack at Sargeras. It would leave the book opened if we left WoW and he was still lurking around, able to causing trouble.



Erm, all that clarifies is that Nerzul is not coming back in any form or fashion. All other speculation is both valid and fun



Why not during Cataclysm? Much like we fought Yogg during LK, why not Azshara during Cataclysm. In fact, I'd dare say the same Old God that twisted Deathwing could be the same Old God that "rescued" Azshara and her Highborne. That Old God could very well be the final boss of Cataclysm. Its more likely though, that that Old God is in a raid before Deathwing.

It was already said several times during Blizzcon that we won't fight or even see Azshara and will only see her brought up much more (especially in the Sunken City).

Fengor said:

While I normally enjoy wading through walls of lore text I just want to speak up on this one point, not sure if anyone else has mentioned it but here goes. I'm warning people ahead of time, if you haven't read Rise of the Lich King yet this post contains the major plot twist at the end of the book.



Did you guys read Christie Golden's book on Arthas at all? If you did you would have read the ending where he kills off both his remaining humanity AND the spirit of Ner'zhul

So no, there is no more "voice of Ner'zhul" controlling Arthas, he's now acting of his own free will, or so it would seem. Seeing as that all took place before Wrath, lore wise, everything Arthas has done in the current expansion has been of his own accord.

There is no more Ner'zhul and there is no more hope for redemption. It's all summed up in a very chilling quote from the end of the book that gives you understanding to the magnitude of what's happened.

[I]" 'No,' Arthas whispered. 'No we. No one tells me what to do. I've got everything I need from you--now the power is mine and mine alone. Now there is only I. I am the Lich King. And I am ready. The orc shuddered in his arms, stunned by the betrayal, and vanished' "[/I]

This is a grave, grave oversight by those leading WoR, this does very largely change the story that will unfold at Ice Crown Citadel. How exactly is not within my grasp but any conception you may hold about how this expansion is going to end is merely speculation and after that little nugget from Christie Golden all speculation goes out the window and we're left only wondering.

And yeah I was at blizzcon and heard Metzen say they have plans for Frostmourne, but those plans don't necessarily mean its going to stay in the hands of evil. Who am I to say though Blizzard has thrown us some hefty curveballs in the past.

--EDIT--
Read over some of the lengthier posts now that I got the nerd rage off my chest and there's alot of talk abotu Ner'Zhul just being banished. He's not banished he's dead, gone, not comming back. Allow me to cite another quote from the ending of Rise of the Lich King.

"Arthas stepped forward, plunging the glittering, hungering Frostmourne ever deeper into the dream-being that had once been Ner'zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all.

And if I might go further detailing the death of his humanity.

"Frostmourne descended. The boy cried out, his shocked, betrayed anguished cry--that of the wind raging outside-- and for a moment Arthas saw him standing there, the blade buried in his chest almost as big as he was, and felt one final tremor of remorse as he met his own eyes.

Then the boy was gone. All that remaind of him was the bitter keening of the wind scouring the tormented land.

It felt...marvelous. It was only with the boy's passing that Arthas truly realized how deadful a burden this last struggling scrap of humanity had been. He felt light, powerful, purged. Scoured clean, as Azeroth would soon be. All his weakness, his softness, everything that had ever made him hesitate or second-guess himself-- it was wall gone, now.

It is never said he killed anything. He didn't kill his humanity and just removed it from his body (his heart/Mathias) and Ner'zhul was just pushed away from his mind. It never is actually stated that Ner'zhul is gone forever and it is very likely that what we will find out about Frostmourne deals with him in some way. For all we know Arthas isn't in as much control as he thinks (Let's not forget the books get retconned also aka the end of Night of the Dragon). I just think it is jumping to conclusions to much that Ner'zhul was actually killed just since Arthas expelled him from his mind but not once was the word killed or death used in those paragraphs which made it perfectly ambiguous to what happened to Ner'zhul.

This post has been edited by Leviathonlx: 12 October 2009 - 03:13 PM

[Fengor]

mucho said:

Erm, all that clarifies is that Nerzul is not coming back in any form or fashion. All other speculation is both valid and fun

Your right speculation is fun, but when I get on a nerd rage about lore I get mean Didn't mean to say that the speculation given was invalid just that it seemed as if the WoR people were saying that Ner'zhul was still around. Also I was trying to correct some people in the thread who were talking like Ner'Zhul was still around and that Arthas had some chance at redemption.

Redemption would be nice, but its not happening anymore.

[Fengor]

Leviathonlx said:

It is never said he killed anything. He didn't kill his humanity and just removed it from his body (his heart/Mathias) and Ner'zhul was just pushed away from his mind. It never is actually stated that Ner'zhul is gone forever and it is very likely that what we will find out about Frostmourne deals with him in some way. For all we know Arthas isn't in as much control as he thinks (Let's not forget the books get retconned also aka the end of Night of the Dragon).

Check page 307 of the book I've got it open right now and it states pretty clearly that he kills Ner'Zhul, and considering he did the same thing to Ner'Zhul that he did to his humanity I think that means they're both dead not simply pushed from his mind.

--EDIT--
I think to say "the act of taking a life always was and always would be" is a pretty clear statement that he killed Ner'Zhul. The book does, however, on page 306 where he off's his humanity that Frostmourne consumes the last of his human soul. So in that regard I suppose you are right its quite possible that Ner'Zhul and his humanity are trapped in the sword (though we already knew Frostmourne ate his soul back in WC3) and could resurface in the future.

As for now I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

This post has been edited by Fengor: 12 October 2009 - 03:17 PM

[Leviathonlx]

Fengor said:

Check page 307 of the book I've got it open right now and it states pretty clearly that he kills Ner'Zhul, and considering he did the same thing to Ner'Zhul that he did to his humanity I think that means they're both dead not simply pushed from his mind.

The word killed or death isn't used once in those paragraphs leaving it completely up to the interpretation of the reader. I honestly think we are in for a lore surprise with Frostmourne.

This post has been edited by Leviathonlx: 12 October 2009 - 03:18 PM

[mucho]

Fengor said:

Your right speculation is fun, but when I get on a nerd rage about lore I get mean Didn't mean to say that the speculation given was invalid just that it seemed as if the WoR people were saying that Ner'zhul was still around. Also I was trying to correct some people in the thread who were talking like Ner'Zhul was still around and that Arthas had some chance at redemption.

Redemption would be nice, but its not happening anymore.

I agree with you. Ner'Zhul ain't coming back! I also think there will be no new Lich King. No real evidence to back that up, just a feeling that Blizzard is not going to repeat that particular lore theme. Especially since we still have the Emerald Dream, Azshara and her Highborne, a couple of Old Gods, and the Burning Legion to deal with. Not to mention "Where in the world/time is Nozdormu". There are way too many plot lines to wrap up. Someone will wield Frostmourne in the future, but it just doesn't seem likely that Blizzard will make that person a Lich King v2.0

[edewen]

regardless of the nerzhul paragraphs in question. arthas clearly isnt in his right mind. it took the whispers of the frostmourne to get him where he is. what bothers me is the status of sylvanas. her entire existence has revolved around revenge. once arthas is defeated what will happen to her. will she be a storyline dead end of a leader? will they find a way to give her another goal? honestly arthas regaining his right mind would be a much more fitting end to his reign as lich king. that being said sylvannas must die. i wanna see arthas. king of the forsaken. risen to its position due to the information he was just a puppet like the rest of them.

[Imadraenei]

Leviathonlx said:

The word killed or death isn't used once in those paragraphs leaving it completely up to the interpretation of the reader. I honestly think we are in for a lore surprise with Frostmourne.

Exactly. Ner'zhul has proven himself to be very manipulative and cunning in his undead state, and I would certainly wager on him over Arthas in a battle of wits. Remember, Arthas was basically a puppet until he released the armor, why not let him believe he's in control?

I would like to add these possible outcomes for the Scourge:

A. If we do destroy the Lich King (whomever he really is right now), what would happen to the remaining Scourge underlings? Considering the meddling of the dreadlords in Undercity and the Onslaught, I wonder if the Legion is working to regain control of its weapon. The Legion is certainly not defeated yet, as the voice through Varimathras's portal indicates.

B. If Ner'zhul is still pulling the lich strings, despite what Arthas thinks, he might be responsible for the successor to Arthas. As mentioned in the article, the Ashbringer has been corrupted before; who's to say it still isn't? If a current lore character is to become the new Lich King, I would bet on Tirion for the reasons stated in the article, and through a persisting taint on the sword. Tirion has to realize that he's not going to get the Horde and Alliance working together, even with Thrall's connection and kinship through Eitrigg and Tirion's former association as one of the premier paladins of the Silver Hand. It's gotta be wearing him down (edit) in the same way that Arthas's efforts agaisnt the Scourge were futile pre-Culling. (end edit)

This post has been edited by Imadraenei: 12 October 2009 - 06:01 PM

[Leviathonlx]

edewen said:

regardless of the nerzhul paragraphs in question. arthas clearly isnt in his right mind. it took the whispers of the frostmourne to get him where he is. what bothers me is the status of sylvanas. her entire existence has revolved around revenge. once arthas is defeated what will happen to her. will she be a storyline dead end of a leader? will they find a way to give her another goal? honestly arthas regaining his right mind would be a much more fitting end to his reign as lich king. that being said sylvannas must die. i wanna see arthas. king of the forsaken. risen to its position due to the information he was just a puppet like the rest of them.

Her new goal after Icecrown is apparently being told to invade Gilneas.