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Upcoming Class Change Hightlights - Part 1, A Priest's Role, Blue Posts

#1 User is offline   WoRBot Icon

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 10:25 PM

Upcoming Class Change Highlights - Part 1

This is part 1, there will obviously be more changes announced soon for the other classes.  As Ghostcrawler said yesterday, these are not all of the changes.

Quote from: Eyonix (Source)

We are planning a lot of exciting content for patch 3.1.0, and we are doing a three-part preview series on upcoming class changes. This is the first in the series: Priests, Rogues, and Shaman. Please keep in mind, that this list is not at all comprehensive, and subject to change.

Posted Image Priest (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

Posted Image Rogue (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

  • Hunger for Blood – instead of a self-buff, this ability can only be used when there is a bleed effect on the target. However, it has no stacks and grants a 15% damage bonus.
  • Adrenaline Rush – the cooldown on this ability has been lowered.
  • Lightning Reflexes – reduced to 3 ranks. In addition to 2/4/6% dodge, this talent now also grants 4/7/10% passive melee haste.
  • Killing Spree – while this ability is active, the rogue does 20% additional damage.
  • Savage Combat – now causes 2/4% physical damage done.
  • Mace Specialization – this talent now grants haste in addition to armor penetration.

Posted Image Shaman (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

COMING SOON
Warlock
Druid
Hunter
Death Knight
Mage
Paladin
Warrior

The Role of the Priest

Quote from: Ghostcrawler (Source)

This is an experiment. :)

One of the things that has confused me a little are all of the posts from players who say they don't understand the role of the priest class. It is unclear to us why there is so much confusion about this particular class, which seems to us to be fairly straightforward.

We are often reluctant to lay out our design goals very clearly, because frankly some players tend to use those statements to attempt to lawyer us into changes ("I'm supposed to be the master of AE damage") or would rather argue about the design instead of providing feedback on how the class actually works.

Nevertheless, because players have asked for it so often and in the interest of trying to foster the discussion, here is what we think of as the role of the priest class.

The Role of the Priest

The priest is a caster class that uses Holy and Shadow magic. Priests can only wear cloth armor and have a limited selection of weapons, but do most of their damage and healing from range. They make up for their low armor with spells that offer protection and healing.

Discipline -- this is a healing tree that emphasizes survival and single-target healing. Discipline specializes in damage absorption and prevention rather than restoring health, although they are very capable in that department too.

Holy -- this is a healing tree that has a spell suited for every situation. Holy priests can heal groups, heal individuals, heal tanks, or do all three in a single encounter. They are better at group healing than Discipline priests, but don't have as many damage prevention capabilities.

Shadow -- this tree sacrifices healing for damage. Shadow priests can restore health and mana to their group while casting their spells. Like the Shadow damage of warlocks, Shadow priest damage tends towards drains and damage over time spells.

Blue Posts

The Game's Direction Q&A (Source)

What's with the need for "all specs being viable for everything"? I was perfectly fine with builds that were preferred for PvP and others for PvE, it was how a player was defined (like if they were a raider, or a PvPer). Not only that, now you have to balance every spec to each other (as if balancing wasn't hard enough).
Among other things, we thought it was shallow that every raider of a class had the same spec and every Gladiator of a class had the same spec. For dps classes, that also tended to lead to the PvE spec, the PvP spec and the pointless spec. For classes with very different roles per tree (like shamans) it doesn't make sense at all to have a PvP spec. So Resto shamans are only for PvP?

PvE gear vs. PvP gear. There's nothing that differentiates them besides 2 stats. Hit and resilience. When I switch over to my PvE gear, I lose a whopping 1k HP. 1k. That's barely anything. Why can't PvP gear and PvE gear be more specialized for those purposes so classes that aren't as reliant on resilience don't get a one-up on others like at the beginning of this season? Also, Naxx 25 raiding is so retard friendly that the best PvE 2 hander in the game is about as easy to get as one piece of savage while the Deadly weapons are almost unreachable.>
If you compare a PvE and PvP piece of the same item level, the PvP piece has more resilience and pays for it by having its other stats lower. This wasn't necessarily the case in BC when resilience was more of a free bonus stat.

The PvE gear is currently pretty easy to get, but we think that is actually a fine place to be after BC where anyone could get Arena "welfare" epics and raiding scared off a lot of people. The PvP gear in LK isn't all that hard to get either when you consider that you can spend badges or get lucky on Archavon. If we could do it over again, though, we probably would have started the Arena season earlier (or at least let some of the Honor gear be attainable) so that there wasn't so much high level PvE gear relative to PvP gear floating around.

The Ulduar gear, especially the better weapons, will be harder to get, just like the new season of gladiator gear will be harder to get.


Posted Image Raids & Dungeons

Malygos Bugs Investigation (Source)

We're checking into the various issues noted here, including why his cone breath hits targets behind his centerpoint, issues with malygos deciding to attack in phase 2, and trying to make the defense bubble's protection work even if you enter the bubble in between the time a missile is launched and when it lands.

Feign Death not working on Malygos is intended (Source)

Feign death not working in actually intentional, but certainly not desired. It was causing a very nasty problem, and we've been trying to figure out a way to handle the particular boundary case without setting the creature flag that ignores feign death.

Sapphiron and Frost Resist (Source)

We've made no explicit changes to the encounter on the design side to change how the frost aura works. When Sapphiron enters combat, he casts a spell on himself that every 2 seconds casts the debuff players receive, which you see as "Frost Aura". That debuff is a 5 second duration damage over time effect that deals frost damage every second. The only difference between the 10 and 25 player versions of these spells is the amount of damage.

So if you were only getting damaged every 2 seconds previously in a 10 player raid, and still are only getting damaged every 2 seconds in a 25 player raid, there's some kind of odd bug going on that I'll have to track down.

Sapphiron Ice Block Bug (Source)

We're also trying to track down why Sapphiron decides to occasionally not cast all the Ice Blocks he should.

Sapphiron fixes aren't to "nerf" the encounter (Source)

Once we find out what he bug is and correct the problem, we'll adjust the numbers if needed to closely match the damage that players have been experiencing when WotLK shipped. We're not trying to adjust the difficulty of this fight, but we need to determine what's happening so this bug doesn't cause problems with future encounters.

Current State of Melee DPS (Source)

There is no such thing as a typical raid or even a typical encounter, so it is tricky to make blanket statements like "X always tops the meters."

Overall, we suspect that warriors are too high (largely on double-dipping effects of Deep Wounds), DKs may be too high, and rogues and possibly cats are too low. This should not be news to anyone who follows these forums.

Again, that depends enormously on your actual group. Players are often very quick to ignore differences in gear or skill when claiming their dps is too low.

We tend to balance around individual encounters though. There might be certain fights where we think say mages, hunters or shamans are too high depending on how that encounter plays out. I would not try and read too much into my statements above.

The meaning of "Pure DPS should top meters" (Source)

When we say "pure dps classes should generally top the meters" we mean "warlocks, hunters, mages and rogues."

However, when we say "generally top the meters" we are refering to players of flawless skill and perfect gear. For almost all raids composed of mortals, a very good player of any dps spec should be able to do the highest damage on an encounter. This was not the case in BC where we kept say Enhancement shamans or Retribution paladins much lower than the pure classes.

Dual Spec Info Coming Soon (Source)

This is still in the works and we will have more information on it for everyone before too much longer.


Posted Image Death Knight (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

Make Unholy Blight the third disease instead of Ebon Plague? (Source)

Not all Unholy DKs pick up Unholy Blight though. One of the benefits of Ebon Plague is it just happens without having to spend that extra GCD. We'll get it fixed.

Plague Strike (Source)

We also agree that Plague Strike feels underwhelming. Part of the reason is that, unlike Icy Touch, it also has a pretty significant PvP effect in its ability to remove hots. We have some ideas to improve it though. We definitely don't want DKs to ever feel like the right way to play is to ignore one of their two main diseases. As some players have pointed out, there are a few reasons why that is the case.

Overall Class Changes (Source)

As a new class, I would expect to see a higher rate of change over time in the DK until they have caught up a little more with the 4+ year history of the other classes.


Posted Image Hunter (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

Explosive Shot Coefficient Hotfix (Source)

We made a hotfix recently to lower the coefficient of Explosive Shot. Sorry we didn't get a chance to announce the change ahead of time. We don't typically do patch notes for hotfixes so we don't have a system in place to always broadcast these before they happen.

We are in the process of making some changes to get damage done more in parity (in PvP and PvE). If there are other classes far ahead of you on the damage meters, chances are good they will see some nerfs to their damage soon too.

Overall, we are trying to make changes in a more timely manner so that players won't feel like they are stuck with a bug or other issue forever. We won't be able to get every issue fixed overnight, but it's a start.

Beast Mastery Fixes ETA (Source)

Soon. I can't tell you a date, but it won't be long.

Marksmanship versus Survival DPS Numbers (Source)

What I said before was that players tend to look at relative numbers while we look at absolute numbers. All the players saying "SV is not too high" justify that by saying "because I am not topping the meters." And in some cases, SV is topping the meters. :)

Pets and their uses (Source)

There is a trade-off between damage and utility. We specifically gave some hunter pets raid buff / debuff options in case your group, esp. a 5 or 10-player group, has trouble having access to that bonus. I have seen a lot of wasps out there lately.

But as I also said, more parity among pets is something we want to pursue. Currently most of the hunter discussions on the forums are about SV-MM-BM differences or PvP however.

Hunter 3.1 Changes (Source)

We hope to be able to announce some 3.1 changes soon.

Hunter Glyph Selection (Source)

We will be adding more glyphs over time, especially for newer abilities. We didn't want to add them all right away for fear that players would just assume the glyphed version of the spell was the way the spell worked rather than realizing what a benefit the glyph itself brought. If that makes sense.


Posted Image Priest (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

Shadow Priest Damage (Source)

We think Shadow priest damage is good in PvE and PvP, minus a few annoying bugs. We think the problem is that Shadow priests just can't survive long enough to do damage. That is a combination of some classes doing too much damage, but also Shadow defenses being too weak.

Priests (or any class) will not be the "best" healer (Source)

I'm pretty sure "jack of all trades, master of none" is something the community came up with, not us. All I have ever said is you can't be "jack of all trades, master of all." You can't be "the best healer in the game." We have no problem if Disc priests can equal Holy paladins or if Holy priests can AE heal as well as Resto shamans. Priests just can't AE heal so well that Resto shamans become pointless. A group that takes all Holy priests for its healers should feel like it is missing out (though it should still be possible). I would say the same thing about every class in the game. :)


Posted Image Rogue (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

Hunger for Blood Change (Source)

The idea with Hunger for Blood is you will probably have bleeds available from other classes in a raid setting (and even if you didn't you can add them yourself). But in PvP it will require an extra step to really benefit from HfB and thus tone down Assassination burst damage a little.

There are more related changes, some sooner and some in 3.1. We didn't want to list every single change, just a sampling.

Killing Spree Change Clarification (Source)

Just imagine it is exactly like the current Killing Spree except that your dps goes up while Killing Spree is active.


Posted Image Warrior (Skills / Talents / Glyphs)

Deep Wounds Hotfixed (Source)

We have been working on fixing the bugs with Deep Wounds so that we wouldn't have to just nerf it across the board. Some of those hotfixes may have gone in.

Fury in particular was doing too much damage on many encounters solely because of these bugs. We think Arms pve damage is probably too low, but we don't want to adjust that by having a buggy Deep Wounds. We also want to make sure prot warriors do not lose too much damage or threat.

Deep Wounds now only scales off pure weapon damage (Enrage, etc. no longer affect it) (Source)

This is the change we made: Number 2 will no longer happen. Instead Deep Wounds will just be a percentage of the damage calculated in number 1.


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#2 User is offline   lora Icon

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:11 PM

hot
it seems youporn > wow websites i think we can actually remove a few words from that sentence while preserving the truth porn > wow
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#3 User is offline   Kamayari Icon

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:16 PM

Nice to see Blizzard finally combining some of those water totems :) And refreshing to see some rogue/priests buffs too.
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#4 User is offline   Keronik Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 03:06 AM

tbh for a lot of guilds it is not important what, but when!!
3.1 is taking ages and i think that each guild that is farming naxx for 2+ months is slowly loosing ppl, and as usuall, not everyone that goes "offline", will be back after 3.1 :<
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#5 User is offline   tsunami38 Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 04:28 AM

they are not seriusly buffing coh again? its still sick as hell ,and combined with pom/the instant flashes more powerful than a shaman in most cases.

Spirit Buff for holys/shadows? quite dumb,should have buffed it so skilling it is worth it.not just give it to anyone so it becomes more useless to mix prieststyles.

Power Word Barrier...sounds very..... fun *sarcasm on*

and to the distinction he makes between disc and holy...why i am not seeing this on the single target abilities of the holy (that get buffed again if serenity is changed).

seems like blizz still pouting some people dont like the buttonmashing tree.
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#6 User is offline   elitenls Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:19 AM

Keronik said:

tbh for a lot of guilds it is not important what, but when!! 3.1 is taking ages and i think that each guild that is farming naxx for 2+ months is slowly loosing ppl, and as usuall, not everyone that goes "offline", will be back after 3.1 :<


Let's clear things up a bit:

1.1.0 - 11/2004
1.2.0 - 12/2004 - Mauradon
1.3.0 - 03/2005 - Dire Maul
1.4.0 - 04/2005 - PVP
1.5.0 - 06/2005 - Battlegrounds
1.6.0 - 07/2005 - Blackwing Lair
1.7.0 - 09/2005 - ZG
1.8.0 - 10/2005 - Silithus
1.9.0 - 01/2006 - AQ
1.10.0 - 03/2006 - Dungeon Set 1
1.11.0 - 06/2006 - Naxxramas
1.12.0 - 8/2006 - Cross-realm Battlegrounds
2.0.1 - 12/2006 - Burning Crusade Introduction
2.1.0 - 05/2007 - The Black Temple
2.2.0 - 09/2007 - Voice Chat
2.3.0 - 11/2007 - Zul'Aman
2.4.0 - 03/2008 - Sunwell
3.0.2 - 10/2008 - Wrath of the Lich King Introduction
3.1.0 - 03/2009 - Ulduar
From release it took roughly 8 months to get a raid. +2 for another one, then +3 for another. +5 from that to the next; and then it was +7 for the starters in BC. +4 for Black Temple, then +6 for ZA (which was hardly a "raid"), then +4 for Sunwell. +9 for the Wrath starters.

They aren't taking too long, they're following a normal development cycle. Do the math.

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#7 User is offline   damaniac82 Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:31 AM

Kamayari said:

Nice to see Blizzard finally combining some of those water totems :)
Maybe, but i also fear that they will nerf both at the same time.... (Hope not!)

Also, what they are doing to CL is simply retarded. How much dmg will the last "jump" do? Like 100 @ 2K SP? WTF? Also, this one will nerf the CL's PvP value, since you rarely "tank" enemies like a trash pack in an instance, instead they are running around, far enough from each other to laugh at the saman who prays for a CL jump while he casts the spell... This is what they call ele buff in PvP? Pfff...


EDIT: Also "nice buff" for rogues... So from 3.1 they will almost oneshot everybody who's not a plate wearer? (Yeah, yeah, i know, pray for one million more resilience, sure that solves everything... :P)
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#8 User is offline   Keronik Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:43 AM

@angelicus: math has nothing to do here, DIFFICULTY is the one that counts

1. after release they do not had to hurry with raid zones, ppl was leveling for few months, and doing lvl 60 instances - they had time to create raid zones
2. when raids started, there was few cockblocks (aka ragnaros), so they had time to create new zones - AND DIFFICULTY of raid zones was much higher then now (ppl was learning how the raids works at all)
3. tbc was released with raid zones @ start - and again DIFFICULTY was much higher then now
4. wrath's naxx was cleared by most raiding guilds in one month (including leveling) from release, it is being farmed for 3 months currently

with so easy content it is obvious that ppl will get bored faster, i understand that they want to kill hardcore playing, but with such a slow developing they are also killing semihardcore guilds (aka the ones raiding 3 days per week)

ps. i hope that ulduar will not hit ptr ... even if it would be bugged a "little"
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#9 User is offline   morgaur Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:38 AM

damaniac82 said:

EDIT: Also "nice buff" for rogues... So from 3.1 they will almost oneshot everybody who's not a plate wearer? (Yeah, yeah, i know, pray for one million more resilience, sure that solves everything... :P)


WTH are you talking about? A change to HfB, that is seldomly used in PvP for being the 51 Assass pointer, and the rest in the Combat tree, which is by far the worst rogue tree for PvP. What can you complain that much about? Only a very small percentile of the rogues you will usually find in a BG will have AR, SC or Killing Spree. No rogue in his right mind would ever go Combat to arenas. And ye, sure adding some haste to a couple of talents is completely imba for PvP.

You just can't complain about PvP imbaness with a majority of changes being done in a PURE PVE spec.
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#10 User is offline   aurelliarg Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:54 AM

and imagine you ll have to use rupture first and then you ll be able to use hunger of blood...clearly pve upgrade... 41/5/25 ll be still best pvp spec..combat changes and haste add have no affect on pvp
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#11 User is offline   Facktotum Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:11 AM

aurelliarg said:

and imagine you ll have to use rupture first and then you ll be able to use hunger of blood...clearly pve upgrade... 41/5/25 ll be still best pvp spec..combat changes and haste add have no affect on pvp


We're not the only ones to bleed things; Warriors of all flavors, Feral Druids, and of course other Rogues all use bleeds. With Warriors especially the bleed (Deep Wounds) will be up essentially 100%, so you don't need to worry a window of reduced damage.


Rogue burst damage
We are reducing it. These changes are not all of the changes

As has been said these are all preliminary changes to make the community happy about upcoming changes. A lot can change during the ptr testing phase. So lets not make assumptions :)
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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:23 AM

From my shaman perspective, i like the way they are adding totems together to allow better raid utility. This means that can possibly add new unique totems. Even though i am resto, i am glad to see the elemental and enhancement getting some love.


From my warrior point of view about the deep wounds nerf....... Finally and thank you. As a fury warrior i have had to listen to almost all other classes complainplain on bosses like patchwerk, thaddius and loatheb about being the top dps in my raids. I like having to work my ass off for that spot, not have it just given too me. If i see a lock, mage, rogue and hunter above me and i am in that fifth spot, I feel as if my raid is doing well. But 90% of the time I am seeing myself beating pure dps classes. The only reason i mind is because with the same gear and skill level, they are not seeing the same results.
"Gauging the health of a game by reading its forums is akin to gauging the health of a community by visiting its hospitals." - Ghostcrawler quoting someone else.
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#13 User is offline   damaniac82 Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:54 AM

morgaur said:

WTH are you talking about? A change to HfB, that is seldomly used in PvP for being the 51 Assass pointer, and the rest in the Combat tree, which is by far the worst rogue tree for PvP. What can you complain that much about? Only a very small percentile of the rogues you will usually find in a BG will have AR, SC or Killing Spree. No rogue in his right mind would ever go Combat to arenas. And ye, sure adding some haste to a couple of talents is completely imba for PvP.

You just can't complain about PvP imbaness with a majority of changes being done in a PURE PVE spec.
Well, add this together with the blue post about "every spec has to be good for PvE and PvP in the same time" and you'll know what i'm talking about. If they do what they plan and at the same time boost a PvE spec, which after the changes turns out to be a bit better than Assa what do you think what will people do? :-)
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#14 User is offline   Archaik Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:12 AM

Really like the change to serendipity, it will make GH alot more viable.
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#15 User is offline   elitenls Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:29 AM

Part 2: Warlock, Druid, Warrior -> http://forums.worldo...cId=14910422662
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#16 User is offline   elitenls Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:31 AM

Keronik said:

@angelicus: ...


I see your point dude, I do. However, most players (though you won't find them here) are like me -- rarely raid, do occasional instances -- have never done Sarth/Naxx 25. Even in PUGs.

It's not about quantity -- I'd rather wait another 6 months for Ulduar rather than have it suck, you would too -- though you'll say "don't care, gimme new content" until it's bugged, and you can't do it -- and you're like WTF BLIZZ YOU SUCK RELEASE SHIT THAT ISN'T BROKEN.

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#17 User is offline   morgaur Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:01 AM

damaniac82 said:

Well, add this together with the blue post about "every spec has to be good for PvE and PvP in the same time" and you'll know what i'm talking about. If they do what they plan and at the same time boost a PvE spec, which after the changes turns out to be a bit better than Assa what do you think what will people do? :-)


I was not talking about that change in particular. I DO agree that rogues are overpowered in PvP right now, but all the changes listed are for the moment PvE buffs, not PvP. Can they have some impact in PvP? Yes, they can, to some degree, but still, most of them are for Combat, which unless totally revamped, will remain as rogues' worst PvP tree. The damage increase to Killing Spree for instance can suppose a little increase in Combat PvP performance, but still, when going so deep in the Combat tree you are also giving up important talents for PvP.

I understand the idea of having every spec possible viable for both PvP and PvE, but however, the changes listed (please take into account that I'm referring exclusively to those listed here) have a very low impact in PvP. And I really don't think is possible to make every single class / spec combination viable for every aspect of the game.

If when the PTRs come, or when more rogue changes are posted, Combat gets really buffed in PvP, then I'll gladly agree with you. Until then, no, this changes are not going to make a serious PvP rogue any more OP. And PvP balance is not screwed exclusively because of the imbaness of rogues.

For Facktotum: Aurelliarg was talking about a PvP situation in which the rogue's target doesn't have any other bleed effects on him than those the rogue himself can do. Think of a 2v2 arena with rogue+healer, for instance, or any 1v1 situation in world PvP / BG.
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#18 User is offline   Halbarad Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:04 AM

wow there really making locks into a buff class in 3.1

Improved Shadow Bolt – this talent now provides a 5% spell critical strike buff (similar to Improved Scorch).

Improved Soul Leech – this talent now provides Replenishment (similar to shadow priests)

quite imba (but probbaly not what locks wanted, we all want dps not buffs heh_
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#19 User is offline   Kody Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:25 AM

Halbarad said:

wow there really making locks into a buff class in 3.1

Improved Shadow Bolt – this talent now provides a 5% spell critical strike buff (similar to Improved Scorch).

Improved Soul Leech – this talent now provides Replenishment (similar to shadow priests)

quite imba (but probbaly not what locks wanted, we all want dps not buffs heh_


It's actually nice to see an additional option for Replenishment, but it probably could have been put on a better talent. That's a... 10% chance for Replenishment to proc for a Warlock? Assuming the chance to proc Soul Leech stays the same (maybe they tweaked that too).
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#20 User is offline   Leviathonlx Icon

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 11:51 AM

Well we know Imp Scorch and Winters Chill are being nerfed to 5% from that also.
Leviathon
Senior Moderator
World of Raids
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