S1A1: Stamina - A Balanced Comparison

[Katjia]

Originally Posted by Fuzzwobble

Oh, nice work spotting that, Katjia. I'll adjust the formula to fix the error, though it isn't very significant.

Yes, rather minor - I was a little more concerned about your decision to assume only one stamina trinket tbh (when it's things like double Juggernaut/Satrina's that can really highlight the differences in health scaling between the classes) but that's a personal choice and a little harder to put a finger on.

I won't get into Druids and avoidance right now, or indirect mitigation. To be frank, it's a discussion for a different article.

certainly seems you were headed in that direction - it just struck a really wrong chord when you blamed our lack of block and parry for our higher health scaling in your conclusion here, when our 'block' actually performs rather well, and lack of parry is really quite inconsequential


oh, and random comment about stoneskin gargoyle (again a very minor amount of health scaling) but considering SSG gives the DK 3% avoidance on top of the health and flexibility of easy crit immunity - I'd be surprised if all that many DK's choose Swordshattering for a mere 1% etra avoidance.

[Fuzzwobble]

I still get a little giggle when I see it myself, but if a DK has the health and defense he needs there's no reason not to, I suppose.
I'm personally not a fan of Dual Wielding tanks either due to the parrygib effect, but there are a tonne of Frost DK tanks out there and we have to respect their choice of playing style.
If they make it work, kudos to them!

Regarding the trinkets, the number i've used is based upon the idea that 1 1/2 stamina trinkets would be equipped. It seems silly, but since half the tanks in the game have 1 stamina trinket equipped and the other half have 2 (and very few have none), a 1.5 number seemed appropriate.

In fact, the hardest part of using this style of theory is assigning the numbers. It took a long time to sift through all available items at the tier level and try and find a good sitting point for the numbers. The bracers and belt were the most difficult, since the stamina variance in them is quite notable.

Then again, there aren't enough theory threads out there that take current item levels into account just because it's 'too hard'.

On another note, I reworked my theorum to include alot of small changes to tighten it up, and fix another fractal error. At the same time I removed the summary section since it was causing more harm than good at this stage, since making the summary required outside source work.

It should be pretty near airtight now. I've been thinking of taking all my scribbled data and formatting the stamina data into a percentage analysis for when I calculate effective health. What do you think?

[SOLARFLASH]

Originally Posted by Fuzzwobble

Finally, yes, Paladins are very good tanks. In that respect, the poster was correct. I still stand by that statement, and challenge you to find any raiding guild that says otherwise.

/applaud

The biggest argument anyone has posted is "I am not a pally, I am successful".

That is true. I am not a pally. I am successful. I have a > gear score than any other player in our guild atm (I know gear score isn't perfect). I am the third tank in our 25 mans. Why? Because Druids (my class) are more flexible, and pallies, in equal gear are more survivable. The author is talking about big picture, and many things that aren't covered (yet).

If your bored, go lookup the rosters of the top 10, 100, 1000 guilds (not sure how much spare time you have) and you will find a very well geared prot pally in almost all of them. Many will lack a bear, or a DK. Almost all have Pally and Warrior. It's not by accident or chance. So don't get bent out of shape if your class isn't considered the best today, because maybe tomorrow it will.

All tanks are currently viabale, and I truley believe that is a respectable achievement (I know, crazy, someone is happy with Blizz's efforts). Some will always be better than others in the perfect world of theorycrafting & Min/Maxing.

[Teraxe]

First off, any article that some how comes tot eh conclusion that warriors have more stam and thus HP than an equivalently geared DK is absolutly trash.

second an article that makes the many many assumptions and short cut and rounding you and guestimates that you do, completly invalidates the article.

And the notion that you shouldn't take into account class abilties like runeforging is complete fail.

Enjoy your useless failure of an article, the worst part is you won't even listen to feedback that shows you to be incorrect and jsut ignore it, unless it reasserts your PoV. You could have a decent article if you didn.t think you were better than everyone else posting, and took the steps to make it such.

[Katjia]

Originally Posted by Fuzzwobble

Regarding the trinkets, the number i've used is based upon the idea that 1 1/2 stamina trinkets would be equipped. It seems silly, but since half the tanks in the game have 1 stamina trinket equipped and the other half have 2 (and very few have none), a 1.5 number seemed appropriate.

aha, I misread that 1.5 isn't so bad - although you'd have to look at why and when that other half don't use stamina trinkets.
In my case, I'll use my Greatness card for 'most' content - except the stuff that really hurts where I'll swap in a second stamina trinket.
In a way, you could say that when it really matters most tanks will be using double stamin trinkets if they have them available (Anub'arak being one possible exception).


finally found the spreadsheet I was looking for earlier:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...mcEp2Zmc&hl=en

it probably has some minor errors, but he shows his 'working' on the various tabs - check the '3.2 gear list' for details on the equipment used...
but that's a handly little comparison someone's knocked up that shows releative total health values between the various tanking classes when fully raid buffed in something reasonably close to 'BiS' tanking gear for this current patch.

the very fact that it uses such high level gear removes it slightly from reality - it's not often you'll have four tanks standing in a room each with that kind of gear fully equipped, and in some cases you're probably going to get odd results simply doe tio itemisation 'holes'...
but check it out if you get a chance - should make a handy resource for you to at least 'sanity check' the numbers you're mocking up here back to a 'real life' example.

from the spreadhseet:
Warrior: 57,463
Blood DK: 58,314
Paladin: 58,779
Druid: 66,230
(don't even ask what a Bear in full Relentless will do to those numbers :P

[Merecat]

What is this for? Are you attempting to figure out what is the best tanking class without factoring in:

A) All class abilities/buffs
B) All raid buffs
C) Gems/Enchants
D) Boss mechanics
E) Raid damage mitigation cooldowns


I realize you are ranking on stamina alone, but there is no way to make a "Balanced Comparison" if you include some class buffs but not others

[Fuzzwobble]

Originally Posted by Katjia

aha, I misread that 1.5 isn't so bad - although you'd have to look at why and when that other half don't use stamina trinkets.
In my case, I'll use my Greatness card for 'most' content - except the stuff that really hurts where I'll swap in a second stamina trinket.
In a way, you could say that when it really matters most tanks will be using double stamin trinkets if they have them available (Anub'arak being one possible exception).


finally found the spreadsheet I was looking for earlier:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...mcEp2Zmc&hl=en

it probably has some minor errors, but he shows his 'working' on the various tabs - check the '3.2 gear list' for details on the equipment used...
but that's a handly little comparison someone's knocked up that shows releative total health values between the various tanking classes when fully raid buffed in something reasonably close to 'BiS' tanking gear for this current patch.

the very fact that it uses such high level gear removes it slightly from reality - it's not often you'll have four tanks standing in a room each with that kind of gear fully equipped, and in some cases you're probably going to get odd results simply doe tio itemisation 'holes'...
but check it out if you get a chance - should make a handy resource for you to at least 'sanity check' the numbers you're mocking up here back to a 'real life' example.

from the spreadhseet:
Warrior: 57,463
Blood DK: 58,314
Paladin: 58,779
Druid: 66,230
(don't even ask what a Bear in full Relentless will do to those numbers :P

That spreadsheet seems pretty on the ball. I'm guessing the paladin probably didn't go too far out of his way for stamina, so he probably knew what he was doing.

What do you think of block and effective health?

It's a bit controversial as far as theory work goes nowadays, so I'm on the fence as to whether to include block in an effective health summary.

A note to the haters: if you are going to nitpick at least do so in a way which is constructive. If you think something about the formula is wrong and can explain why, then I welcome you to do so. This is supposed to be a community activity, not a debate.

Just please, don't make me repeat myself regarding certain things which were already explained in the original article, and already elaborated upon in a further post.

[Katjia]

What do you think of block and effective health?

It's a bit controversial as far as theory work goes nowadays, so I'm on the fence as to whether to include block in an effective health summary.

That's a curly one, but if Chill goes through it's going to be harder to justify taking Block into account when your 'worst case' for all tanking classes will include multiple consecutive unblocked hits.
It no doubt varies from encounter to encounter - when a Paladin can guarantee a block on every hit that matters, then you're probably safe factoring it in, but even something like Beasts, where the 'kill shot' is generally a blockable/avoidable melee swing taken on top of a completely unblockable (unless you're a Bear), unavoidable special attack.
Not to mention mechanics such as stun or fear which simply turn off block alltogether.


but then, quite aside from 'worst case' combos, you're doing DK's an injustice if you overlook block completely

[Iceszz]

--"For this formula I will consider Blessing of Sanctuary to be a stance modifier for Paladins,"
Why do you do that? It just makes everything really confusing, with you adding and multiplying all your "modifiers" in different orders. For example, it looks like you "buff" warriors the same way you buff paladins, ie. without Kings. Is it wrong or right the way you have it? I don't fucking know! lol
--The dk 2 stam enchant is class specific--no other class can have this enchant. If you wrote out a whole different thing for dk's specced with VotW, why not also for the enchant? Yeah I KNOW I could do it myself, but it's YOUR article.
--What was the point of finding these "stamina values"? If your next part is on "effective health", then isn't that what you're really going after? I mean, won't the next part make this part kind of worthless?
--I think all your "modifiers" are a little too fuzzy...Yeah, it could make your article longer and requires more work for you, but you relaly should explain some more of your math if you're gonna THEORYCRAFT LOL

[Fuzzwobble]

Good question, Iceszz. The reason why I cooked up this new system and applied stamina values to item slots was to get an idea of the differences of effective health the classes have in their current item levels.
Next article I was thinking I would convert the stamina summaries to percentage values after the mitigation values have been factored in.

The multiplier to add 10% to something is x1.1. If you times 20 by 1.1 you get 22. I'm pretty sure most of the math has been explained. That's why the text version of the formula is there.

[Teraxe]

Originally Posted by Fuzzwobble

Good question, Iceszz. The reason why I cooked up this new system and applied stamina values to item slots was to get an idea of the differences of effective health the classes have in their current item levels.
Next article I was thinking I would convert the stamina summaries to percentage values after the mitigation values have been factored in.

The multiplier to add 10% to something is x1.1. If you times 20 by 1.1 you get 22. I'm pretty sure most of the math has been explained. That's why the text version of the formula is there.

But your numbers, they are inconsistant and hurt my brain, why must you do this?

Death Knight Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.16+70= 1417 Stamina Value

Warrior Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.06= 1231x1.1+68= 1423 Stamina Value

What is the 16% bonus to stam DKs get?
waht is the 6% and 10% bonus warriors get?

I am assuming that warrior 6% = vitaltiy and 10% = BoK
and the DK 16% is because you added 6% from FP to 10% from BoK before multiplying.

If I am wrong tell me what you did?

[Fuzzwobble]

Originally Posted by Teraxe

But your numbers, they are inconsistant and hurt my brain, why must you do this?

Death Knight Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.16+70= 1417 Stamina Value

Warrior Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.06= 1231x1.1+68= 1423 Stamina Value

What is the 16% bonus to stam DKs get?
waht is the 6% and 10% bonus warriors get?

I am assuming that warrior 6% = vitaltiy and 10% = BoK
and the DK 16% is because you added 6% from FP to 10% from BoK before multiplying.

If I am wrong tell me what you did?

Death Knight Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.16+70= 1417 Stamina Value
10% for Kings, 6% for Frost Presence. To calculate +16% stamina = x1.16

Warrior Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.06= 1231x1.1+68= 1423 Stamina Value
Talents come into play before stance modifiers, hence the 6% from talents calculates before kings.

It's a little hard to swallow that non-Blood Death Knights have less stamina while buffed than Warriors, but Death Knights tend to seek more stamina on their gear, and none of their itemlevel is used up by the block statistics so it's not too difficult to.

[Katjia]

Originally Posted by Fuzzwobble

Death Knight Buffed:
580+120+79+97+103+103+79= 1161x1.16+70= 1417 Stamina Value
10% for Kings, 6% for Frost Presence. To calculate +16% stamina = x1.16

Kings shouldn't be additive with Frost Presence - same as the warrior's talented 6% they should multiply out

1161x1.06x1.1

[Fuzzwobble]

Can you show me some source on that Katjia? Not that I disbelieve you, but i'd like to see where you caught this info from. I'm always up for other opinions and sample theory work.

[hotbubbles]

Originally Posted by Brachamul

Did you take into account the DK's 2% extra health from the Gargoyle rune?

I understand your analysis, but i have trouble with your conclusions. You can't conclude that "paladins are a very powerful tank" simply from a health analysis. You will put forward in your later articles that paladins have low damage reduction (9%, as opposed to a Frost DK's 13%).

Paladins get 3% dmg reduction from BoS, 6% from Righteous Fury, and 3% from Divine Plea Glyph, not to mention the 3% Dmg reduction from Shield of the Templar. So total dmg reduction of 15%.