On why the new LFG system needs redesigned

[harly]

Been on the PTR testing the new LFG system, which sounds great on paper, but fails miserably in practice. Spent an entire weekend of pounding my head against my desk testing roughly 40 pug groups on the new LFG system.

Here's how it works:
Pull up the LFG window > click on the role you can fill (tank/dmg/heals) > select random dungeons or specific ones > and then hit the find group button. A ready check window will pop open showing you which roles still need to be filled, and once all are filled, you will then instantly be transported to the dungeon. Upon entering the dungeon you receive a 15 minute debuff which indicates you just joined a random LFG group and cannot join any others until it wears off.

Here's why it fails:
1) Group leader cannot remove disconnected people. From what I can tell, the LFG AI will remove the disconnected person after a certain period of time. Until that time, you are stuck with that person. Also, that time can last indefinitely as the LFG AI does not always do its job.
2) When a player leaves the group, the LFG AI does not always recognize when that person needs to be replaced. For some dungeons, like Occulus, this means you will not finish.
3) Everybody in the group must vote to remove another player in the group. So if you have multiple idiots in your group working together, nobody will be removed (actually happens quite often).
4) Group leader cannot initiate multiple removal requests, as there is an apparent quota on such things. Since you are grouping with pugs, most of whom are terrible, then after 2-3 removal requests, you will be stuck with some god awful pug for the remainder of the instance.
5) Group leader is not automatically given to the tank.
6) Because all the servers are intermixed, a key aspect of grouping is lost - social reputation. Because the likelihood of seeing another one of these players is slim, it has severe negative affects on the way groupmates perform. People can go /afk, can act like children, be negligent, etc, because there is no threat to their reputation on their own server. Most pugs are full of people like this, but now, it is far worse.
7) You cannot leave groups like the ones above, because once you enter the zone, you are given the 15 minute debuff which prevents you from re-entering. If that buff has worn off during the course of your PUG, but you pre-emptively leave that group to avoid further brain damage, you are then hit with another debuff which prevents you from joining 15 minutes after that, called "dungeon deserter". With the old LFG tool having been taken away, you're then forced to go afk for 15, or rely on yelling in /2 or /4, if you're on a short time limit.
8) There is no other way to complete the daily heroic quest.
9) You cannot choose the classes of those joining the group. So if you prefer ranged DPS over yet another melee because of how the encounters operate, you're hosed.
10) The chance to group with and meet people on your own server is now slim. Given that many people play games because of the network of people and friends they make, not to mention the new people they get to meet as they play the game, this is probably one of the worst aspects of this new system, since the new people you meet you can't play with after the dungeon ends.
11) You cannot send tells directly to the people in your group, as this results in a 'player not found' error message.

There are some great things about this system:
1) It teleports you directly inside the instance once the ready queue is filled. When I compare the average time it takes to get a PUG started, getting everybody in the instance seems to be the greatest contributor to the long startup time. This is a great new feature.
2) Random dungeon groups are filled faster since the queue is indiscriminate in who it chooses.
3) You no longer have to pick up the heroic daily quest.
4) Putting together a low level group on a lower population server will move far faster now that servers are joined together in the LFG system.

Summary:
The new LFG system should be redesigned. I think it's great for lower levels, in that they will find groups faster (albeit they can't keep their new friends). I think the instant teleport into the instance is also fantastic, as this drastically reduces the startup time of the PUG. But after that, the rest of the LFG system is a complete train wreck.

[harly]

For some reason, I receive an error when I attempt to edit my original post, so let me put this in:

#1, 2, and 11, are most likely bugs I encountered. I submitted bugs on the PTR for them anyways.

I think #10 will have a severe negative impact on 'truly new' players, as they are now subjected to a greater pool of moronic players, but cannot build upon the friendships with the good players, as they are most likely not on the same server. I recount my summary statement that this is a great low level change, for this specific reason.

I don't think I would ever use this system, even with all the bugs fixed, unless it was to do the daily heroic quest, and only then because I was forced to.

[ersiusp]

In regards to the dungeon daily, can't you queue with an entirely formed group? I thought I read that you could.

[Kody]

Yeah, you can do this with a full group. You don't have to join the queue solo.

[Cappifoo]

Originally Posted by harly

Here's why it fails:


5) Group leader is not automatically given to the tank.
6) Because all the servers are intermixed, a key aspect of grouping is lost - social reputation. Because the likelihood of seeing another one of these players is slim, it has severe negative affects on the way groupmates perform. People can go /afk, can act like children, be negligent, etc, because there is no threat to their reputation on their own server. Most pugs are full of people like this, but now, it is far worse.
10) The chance to group with and meet people on your own server is now slim. Given that many people play games because of the network of people and friends they make, not to mention the new people they get to meet as they play the game, this is probably one of the worst aspects of this new system, since the new people you meet you can't play with after the dungeon ends.

These are the aspects that need to be changed also imo.

5. Set up something where group leader can set up an assistant or assist like a raid for marking.
6+10. I agree with what you said but possibly the only option is to put in a preference or setting that allows the new lfg system to only group you with people from your server which would possibly split it up too much for instance like non xp bg's and xp bg's

Originally Posted by harly

9) You cannot choose the classes of those joining the group. So if you prefer ranged DPS over yet another melee because of how the encounters operate, you're hosed.

Im not too picky but i generally always try to get a replenishment. Otherwise specific classes are generally a waste of time for just a heroic.

[Leviathonlx]

Originally Posted by harly

Been on the PTR testing the new LFG system, which sounds great on paper, but fails miserably in practice. Spent an entire weekend of pounding my head against my desk testing roughly 40 pug groups on the new LFG system.

Here's how it works:
Pull up the LFG window > click on the role you can fill (tank/dmg/heals) > select random dungeons or specific ones > and then hit the find group button. A ready check window will pop open showing you which roles still need to be filled, and once all are filled, you will then instantly be transported to the dungeon. Upon entering the dungeon you receive a 15 minute debuff which indicates you just joined a random LFG group and cannot join any others until it wears off.

Here's why it fails:
1) Group leader cannot remove disconnected people. From what I can tell, the LFG AI will remove the disconnected person after a certain period of time. Until that time, you are stuck with that person. Also, that time can last indefinitely as the LFG AI does not always do its job.
2) When a player leaves the group, the LFG AI does not always recognize when that person needs to be replaced. For some dungeons, like Occulus, this means you will not finish.
3) Everybody in the group must vote to remove another player in the group. So if you have multiple idiots in your group working together, nobody will be removed (actually happens quite often).
4) Group leader cannot initiate multiple removal requests, as there is an apparent quota on such things. Since you are grouping with pugs, most of whom are terrible, then after 2-3 removal requests, you will be stuck with some god awful pug for the remainder of the instance.
5) Group leader is not automatically given to the tank.
6) Because all the servers are intermixed, a key aspect of grouping is lost - social reputation. Because the likelihood of seeing another one of these players is slim, it has severe negative affects on the way groupmates perform. People can go /afk, can act like children, be negligent, etc, because there is no threat to their reputation on their own server. Most pugs are full of people like this, but now, it is far worse.
7) You cannot leave groups like the ones above, because once you enter the zone, you are given the 15 minute debuff which prevents you from re-entering. If that buff has worn off during the course of your PUG, but you pre-emptively leave that group to avoid further brain damage, you are then hit with another debuff which prevents you from joining 15 minutes after that, called "dungeon deserter". With the old LFG tool having been taken away, you're then forced to go afk for 15, or rely on yelling in /2 or /4, if you're on a short time limit.
8) There is no other way to complete the daily heroic quest.
9) You cannot choose the classes of those joining the group. So if you prefer ranged DPS over yet another melee because of how the encounters operate, you're hosed.
10) The chance to group with and meet people on your own server is now slim. Given that many people play games because of the network of people and friends they make, not to mention the new people they get to meet as they play the game, this is probably one of the worst aspects of this new system, since the new people you meet you can't play with after the dungeon ends.
11) You cannot send tells directly to the people in your group, as this results in a 'player not found' error message.

There are some great things about this system:
1) It teleports you directly inside the instance once the ready queue is filled. When I compare the average time it takes to get a PUG started, getting everybody in the instance seems to be the greatest contributor to the long startup time. This is a great new feature.
2) Random dungeon groups are filled faster since the queue is indiscriminate in who it chooses.
3) You no longer have to pick up the heroic daily quest.
4) Putting together a low level group on a lower population server will move far faster now that servers are joined together in the LFG system.

Summary:
The new LFG system should be redesigned. I think it's great for lower levels, in that they will find groups faster (albeit they can't keep their new friends). I think the instant teleport into the instance is also fantastic, as this drastically reduces the startup time of the PUG. But after that, the rest of the LFG system is a complete train wreck.

1. That's what the vote option is for.
2. That sounds like a bug that will get fixed.
3. Sounds like you have bad experiences with pugs which may be more you than them.
4. You seem to have a inherent hatred for pugs and if that's the case why are you pugging in the first place?
5. Anyone can mark in 3.3 the last I looked unless its only for raids.
6. I think this is pretty good paranoia on your part.
7. If you have such a problem with pugging and have such bad experiences then don't pug.
8. I thought I read a post saying you could do it with a premade.
9. This is WotLK not TBC or vanilla WoW and class makeup does not matter anymore outside of having a tank, healer and 3 other DPS contrary to what some people stuck in the past want to believe.
10. Use the LFG channel then.
11. That's a bug.

You just sound like someone who has a dislike for pugs because of people being 'bad' or being 'idiots' and don't sound like someone that should use it in the first place. I mean sure you meet idiots everywhere you go (even in your own guild) but it isn't THAT bad. The system will have some kinks that need to be worked out but in the end I see it as a vast improvement.

[Senka]

I can kinda sympathize with the loss of "socializing" and "keeping your newfound friends" if you use this system cross-server, but at the same time I have to say, ".. no shit?"
It's just doing PuGs on a grand scale. Every other MMO and MMORPG has been like this, and Blizzard is finally adding that kind of stuff to WoW.